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Lillee/Trueman/Akram/Donald - how would you rank them?

shortpitched713

shortpitched713

Cricketer Of The Year
DrWolverine said:
Can you add a few more bowlers?Warne. Murali. Holding. Garner. Imran. Pollock. Walsh. Bumrah(so far).
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Off the top of my head I want to do Imran, Garner, Warne, Pollock, Philander (of course), Ashwin, and Bumrah. Not really interested in longevity merchants like Walsh, Anderson, etc.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
shortpitched713 said:
Statsguru, you just plug in a start and end date, then you could run a filter for the player of your choice to compare:

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ftr aggregate/overall is a poor method as it includes all extras, not just bowling ones. Better way is to go to the bowling tab, advanced and hit display by overall aggregate rather than individual player.

 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Donald only hit his peak in 96 so if he debuted a couple years earlier he may have soft records more added to his record. His peak was also slightly shorter than the others.
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We can't be completely sure, but it's probable that him peaking late means the opposite of what you are saying. It wasn't a late developer, but it does take some time for most bowlers to find their feet in intwrnational cricket. You improve from playing with and against the best bowlers, and getting the best coaching etc. And it takes a while to figure out that what works to domestic bats doesn't necessarily work for internationals.

Him peaking at a late age left him with hardly any time before aging out.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Bolo. said:
We can't be completely sure, but it's probable that him peaking late means the opposite of what you are saying. It wasn't a late developer, but it does take some time for most bowlers to find their feet in intwrnational cricket. You improve from playing with and against the best bowlers, and getting the best coaching etc. And it takes a while to figure out that what works to domestic bats doesn't necessarily work for internationals.

Him peaking at a late age left him with hardly any time before aging out.
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iirc he’s the oldest pace ATG (aside from Barnes) on debut. I think Lindwall was relatively old too but he came in hot. Completely different when everyone’s coming out of a war vs one country coming out of sporting isolation ofc.
 
P

peterhrt

State Regular
When South Africa returned from isolation Mike Procter was team manager. This is what he said about Donald.

How much does he give to his county, Warwickshire, who have treated him well? How much will be left over for South Africa? Allan feels a great deal of loyalty to Warwickshire, having been given the chance in county cricket in 1987 and being preferred as overseas player ahead of Tom Moody when the club faced a tricky problem. But he has to be aware of burning himself out, especially as he tries so hard.

I know what's involved in bowling fast in English cricket, season after season, and my instincts are that two to three years is enough for an overseas fast bowler. You could say I'm watching Allan's position very closely, because he's very valuable to us.

Allan Donald, like several others including Trueman, was just as committed to county as country, if not more so. It is a reason to be cautious about looking at Test stats in isolation.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
Coronis said:
iirc he’s the oldest pace ATG (aside from Barnes) on debut. I think Lindwall was relatively old too but he came in hot. Completely different when everyone’s coming out of a war vs one country coming out of sporting isolation ofc.
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I think debut around 20-21, start peaking around 23-24 and start aging out around 31 would probably be the archetype for careers.

OFC, everyone is different, and there are probably only a couple of bowlers who actually follow these exact patterns, but if you had to pick typical dates, it's probably along these lines.
 
trundler

trundler

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Donald had everything and his record is exceptionally well-rounded too. Reckon he's the best of this lot statistically. His career is a bit shorter but through no fault of his own. Top 10 for me and even if he's not #1 here, he's a cut above entry-level ATGs imo.
 
subshakerz

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bolo. said:
We can't be completely sure, but it's probable that him peaking late means the opposite of what you are saying. It wasn't a late developer, but it does take some time for most bowlers to find their feet in intwrnational cricket. You improve from playing with and against the best bowlers, and getting the best coaching etc. And it takes a while to figure out that what works to domestic bats doesn't necessarily work for internationals.

Him peaking at a late age left him with hardly any time before aging out.
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Possibly but we can't be sure. He leaked around the same time all pacers do, mid 20s. All we can be sure if is career was shorter.
 
Coronis

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
Bolo. said:
I think debut around 20-21, start peaking around 23-24 and start aging out around 31 would probably be the archetype for careers.

OFC, everyone is different, and there are probably only a couple of bowlers who actually follow these exact patterns, but if you had to pick typical dates, it's probably along these lines.
Click to expand...
Just gonna test this and see how/if it lines up, using the peaks from DoG’s thread (so min 5 year peak)

Using the top 20 pacers from the bowlers thread

Marshall debut 20, peak 25-30, retired 32
McGrath debut 23, peak 29-35, retired 36
Hadlee debut 21, peak 32-37, retired 39
Steyn debut 21, peak 29-34, retired 35
Ambrose debut 24, peak 26-31, retired 36
Imran debut 18, peak 29-34, retired 39
Barnes debut 28, peak 34-40 retired 40
Lillee debut 21, peak 26-31, retired 34
Donald debut 25, peak 29-34, retired 35
Trueman debut 21, peak 26-32, retired 34
Garner debut 24, peak 24-30, retired 34
Lindwall debut 24, peak 25-31, retired 38
Waqar debut 17, peak 18-23, retired 31
Holding debut 21, peak 22-27, retired 33
Davidson debut 23, peak 25-31, retired 33
Pollock debut 22, peak 25-30, retired 34
Walsh debut 22, peak 32-37, retired 38
Anderson debut 20, peak 33-38, retired 41
Roberts debut 23, peak 23-28, retired 32

Marshall, Lillee and Pollock are probably the closest to fitting I’d say. (also thats just based on average but big disagree on that being Garner’s peak!)
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
subshakerz said:
Possibly but we can't be sure. He leaked around the same time all pacers do, mid 20s. All we can be sure if is career was shorter.
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Nope, can't be sure. It's just the pattern that genuine fast bowlers tend to follow, which makes it a best guess.
 
B

Bolo.

International Captain
Coronis said:
Just gonna test this and see how/if it lines up, using the peaks from DoG’s thread (so min 5 year peak)

Using the top 20 pacers from the bowlers thread

Marshall debut 20, peak 25-30, retired 32
McGrath debut 23, peak 29-35, retired 36
Hadlee debut 21, peak 32-37, retired 39
Steyn debut 21, peak 29-34, retired 35
Ambrose debut 24, peak 26-31, retired 36
Imran debut 18, peak 29-34, retired 39
Barnes debut 28, peak 34-40 retired 40
Lillee debut 21, peak 26-31, retired 34
Donald debut 25, peak 29-34, retired 35
Trueman debut 21, peak 26-32, retired 34
Garner debut 24, peak 24-30, retired 34
Lindwall debut 24, peak 25-31, retired 38
Waqar debut 17, peak 18-23, retired 31
Holding debut 21, peak 22-27, retired 33
Davidson debut 23, peak 25-31, retired 33
Pollock debut 22, peak 25-30, retired 34
Walsh debut 22, peak 32-37, retired 38
Anderson debut 20, peak 33-38, retired 41
Roberts debut 23, peak 23-28, retired 32

Marshall, Lillee and Pollock are probably the closest to fitting I’d say. (also thats just based on average but big disagree on that being Garner’s peak!)
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Should havw qualified that I meant this for genuine quicks. The FM line and length merchants are mostly on a later timeline.

Add Steyn to the Garner camp, but in reverse. I think a few bowlers don't see their average dip much as they age, but aren't able to take aa many wickets.
 
DrWolverine

DrWolverine

International Captain
Coronis said:
Just gonna test this and see how/if it lines up, using the peaks from DoG’s thread (so min 5 year peak)

Using the top 20 pacers from the bowlers thread

Marshall debut 20, peak 25-30, retired 32
McGrath debut 23, peak 29-35, retired 36
Hadlee debut 21, peak 32-37, retired 39
Steyn debut 21, peak 29-34, retired 35
Ambrose debut 24, peak 26-31, retired 36
Imran debut 18, peak 29-34, retired 39
Barnes debut 28, peak 34-40 retired 40
Lillee debut 21, peak 26-31, retired 34
Donald debut 25, peak 29-34, retired 35
Trueman debut 21, peak 26-32, retired 34
Garner debut 24, peak 24-30, retired 34
Lindwall debut 24, peak 25-31, retired 38
Waqar debut 17, peak 18-23, retired 31
Holding debut 21, peak 22-27, retired 33
Davidson debut 23, peak 25-31, retired 33
Pollock debut 22, peak 25-30, retired 34
Walsh debut 22, peak 32-37, retired 38
Anderson debut 20, peak 33-38, retired 41
Roberts debut 23, peak 23-28, retired 32

Marshall, Lillee and Pollock are probably the closest to fitting I’d say. (also thats just based on average but big disagree on that being Garner’s peak!)
Click to expand...
Dale Steyn was born in 1983. No way did his peak start in 2012.
 
DrWolverine

DrWolverine

International Captain
Coronis said:
Just gonna test this and see how/if it lines up, using the peaks from DoG’s thread (so min 5 year peak)

Using the top 20 pacers from the bowlers thread

Marshall debut 20, peak 25-30, retired 32
McGrath debut 23, peak 29-35, retired 36
Hadlee debut 21, peak 32-37, retired 39
Steyn debut 21, peak 29-34, retired 35
Ambrose debut 24, peak 26-31, retired 36
Imran debut 18, peak 29-34, retired 39
Barnes debut 28, peak 34-40 retired 40
Lillee debut 21, peak 26-31, retired 34
Donald debut 25, peak 29-34, retired 35
Trueman debut 21, peak 26-32, retired 34
Garner debut 24, peak 24-30, retired 34
Lindwall debut 24, peak 25-31, retired 38
Waqar debut 17, peak 18-23, retired 31
Holding debut 21, peak 22-27, retired 33
Davidson debut 23, peak 25-31, retired 33
Pollock debut 22, peak 25-30, retired 34
Walsh debut 22, peak 32-37, retired 38
Anderson debut 20, peak 33-38, retired 41
Roberts debut 23, peak 23-28, retired 32

Marshall, Lillee and Pollock are probably the closest to fitting I’d say. (also thats just based on average but big disagree on that being Garner’s peak!)
Click to expand...

I consider Donald to be similar to Maco, Holding, Lille and Steyn. I believe he would have benefitted had he debuted around the age of 20-22 like the others.
 
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