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Do SC Pacers Deserve More Credit For Home Performances?

B

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
subshakerz said:
Your hidden assumption is that 'SC bowlers need to be below worldclass level for us to consider pitch conditions difficult'.
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The records of ATGs quicks are extremely predictable in a way that regular bowlers are not. If you are from a country that is great for pace (RSA and England) your record is better at home. If you come from a country that is decent (Aus, NZ, WI), your record is similar. Pak bucks this trend wildly if it was tough for them. Why?
 
Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
One thing I will say, even more than their home conditions, I'd say Asian fast bowlers are at a distinct disadvantage due to their atrocious fielding. Apologies to my Pakistan brothers and sisters but in their case, how much of that can be attributed to a minor extent to match fixing?

Either way, Asian fielding generally is atrocious. In that sense, I'd give Asian pacers credit for succeeding despite the fielding. Unfortunately, that's not something one can quantify.....
 
Coronis

Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
capt_Luffy said:
That SC pacers should receive more flak for home performances?? Then you should do the same with spinners too.
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Yeah, no, I meant the specific argument about oh if Kapil was English then his record would improve, as if this is supposed to somehow make me change my opinion of him. My response re: Botham was just showing how ridiculous that train of thought is.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Regular
Coronis said:
Yeah, no, I meant the specific argument about oh if Kapil was English then his record would improve, as if this is supposed to somehow make me change my opinion of him. My response re: Botham was just showing how ridiculous that train of thought is.
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I am not asking you to change your opinion on this specific Botham vs Kapil; but it's simple that home conditions matters.
 
S

subshakerz

International Coach
Bolo. said:
The records of ATGs quicks are extremely predictable in a way that regular bowlers are not. If you are from a country that is great for pace (RSA and England) your record is better at home. If you come from a country that is decent (Aus, NZ, WI), your record is similar. Pak bucks this trend wildly if it was tough for them. Why?
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Because of their skill to work around conditions. Not because conditions were easy.
 
S

subshakerz

International Coach
capt_Luffy said:
That Asian bowlers have typically more difficult home conditions..... It's as simple as that. You can rate the bowlings of Botham and Kapil as anyway you want; but the point stands.
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They are in a comfort zone as far as how they see Kapil and don't want to move outside that.
 
S

Socerer 01

International Captain
hmmmmm remember when some people **** on hb for saying that subs was being biased in those Ashwin threads?

now you have the same biased accusations being unashamedly thrown at him in this thread for his opinions with Imran, Wasim, Waqar etc etc

kinda disgusting ngl
 
S

subshakerz

International Coach
Slifer said:
Here's a logical question given the following pool of bowlers and considering only bowling who would be your 3 picks for an atg xi assuming that team would be playing worldwide:
Ambrose, Imran, Wasim, Hadlee, McGrath, Steyn, Lillee, Donald, Trueman, Marshall. I'm picking Marshall, McGrath and Hadlee. Who are you picking Subz?
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Out of those just three for an ATG XI? Marshall (all-round swing), McGrath (seam) and Imran (reverse) to cover my options, though Hadlee is a better bowler than Imran.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

International Regular
subshakerz said:
Out of those just three for an ATG XI? Marshall (all-round swing), McGrath (seam) and Imran (reverse) to cover my options, though Hadlee is a better bowler than Imran.
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I am having Hadlee in my team ahead of McGrath; as I think they're close enough as bowlers that the batting support of Hadlee becomes very useful.
 
X

Xix2565

International Debutant
Slifer said:
One thing I will say, even more than their home conditions, I'd say Asian fast bowlers are at a distinct disadvantage due to their atrocious fielding. Apologies to my Pakistan brothers and sisters but in their case, how much of that can be attributed to a minor extent to match fixing?

Either way, Asian fielding generally is atrocious. In that sense, I'd give Asian pacers credit for succeeding despite the fielding. Unfortunately, that's not something one can quantify.....
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Don't worry, SENAW bowlers can lose more credit for having good fielders. Marshall prob averages 24 if he didn't have a good fielding team.
 
B

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
subshakerz said:
Because of their skill to work around conditions. Not because conditions were easy.
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Do you think conditions were easy for them?

If not, you have a trend that holds true across every country, and (off the top of my head) every top bowler down to Pollock or Anderson (ATG cutoff for me). The 3 guys who buck the trend (severely for Wasim, and extremely severely for the other 2) all played for the same country at the same time. Wild, wild, wild coincidence?
 
S

subshakerz

International Coach
Bolo. said:
Do you think conditions were easy for them?

If not, you have a trend that holds true across every country, and (off the top of my head) every top bowler down to Pollock or Anderson (ATG cutoff for me). The 3 guys who buck the trend (severely for Wasim, and extremely severely for the other 2) all played for the same country at the same time. Wild, wild, wild coincidence?
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No because the pitches are still not pace friendly regardless of their brilliant use of reverse swing.

Less new ball swing, less moisture in the air, heat, low bounce, having to wait until mid-innings on average for it to reverse, and the pressure of having to achieve high pace to be truly effective. Once the new ball is done in a few overs between when the ball is old enough, taking wickets on Pak pitches for pacers is extremely hard.

Pacers in SA, by comparison, can benefit from long new balls spells of extravagant swing and movement early on while bowling comfortably at 135MPHs and still wait for the ball to scuff up for him to apply reverse later. He has a strategic advantage.
 
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B

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
subshakerz said:
No because the pitches are still not pace friendly regardless of their brilliant use of reverse swing.

Less new ball swing, less moisture in the air, heat, low bounce, having to wait until mid-innings on average for it to reverse, and the pressure of having to achieve high pace to be truly effective. Once the new ball is done in a few overs between when the ball is old enough, taking wickets on Pak pitches for pacers is extremely hard.

Steyn in SA, by comparison, can benefit from long new balls spells of extravagant swing and movement early on while bowling comfortably at 135MPHs and still wait for the ball to scuff up for him to apply reverse later. He has a strategic advantage.
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I don't doubt conditions between new and reverse were tough. They were also shorter than anywhere else, and the ball reversed more. For guys whose primary weapon was reverse, this is a big advantage.

Steyn follows the same trend as everyone else, aside from these 3.
 
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