Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[Victor Ian]

This thread is growing so quickly it's like a black hole. Neighbouring threads are in danger.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Those are a lottttttt

What can I say? Test cricket is almost 150 years old.

 

[kyear2]

Trhat should be captured in my other criteria

Arguable that it isn't.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I just counted and there are 69 players in total I consider ATG..... Should add or remove a few......

 

[subshakerz]

I will add one thing to my ATG criteria; and it's that that I give plenty of value to service you provided rather just being good. To put bluntly, between Waqar and Walsh; while making a team I would prefer to have Waqar Younis; but if I can choose only one of them to be an ATG, that's Walsh for me. My ATG criteria is simply:
1. Be very good for a fairly long time, across a variety of places; mostly statistically but also by peer and press ratings. But a monster in some places, with sufficient backing by results; and being atleast good in most others can also do the trick.
2. The value you provided to your team. And it's the latter that really makes Anderson, despite being a lower tier bowler than most in the tier; a close to automatic ATG for me.
By these 2 criterias, I have 4 ATG tiers; the 1st being the very best, close to spotless; the second with minor hick ups and then the third with some major hickups but still results to back up.
Tier God:
Bradman, Grace
Tier 1:
Sobers, Imran, Hadlee, Hobbs, Tendulkar, Marshall, McGrath
Tier 2:
Barnes, Murali, Warne, Smith, Lara, Steyn, Ambrose, Viv, Gavaskar, Gilchrist, Kallis, Hammond, Hutton, Akram
Tier 3:
O'Reilly, Miller, Headley, Chappell, Lillee, Trueman, Donald, Sutcliffe, G Pollock, Garner, Sangakkara, Holding, Lindwall, Davidson, S Pollock, Ranjitsinhji, Trumper
Tier 4:
Botham, Knott, Waqar, Walsh, Cummins, Roberts, Anderson, Procter, Ashwin, Laker, Grimmett, Verity, Kumble, Border, Waugh, Ponting, Dravid, Weekes, ABD, Barry, Walcott, Miandad, Barrington, Flower, Ames, Root, Rhodes, Worrell, Tayfield
The ones I will consider pushing it: Kohli, Nourse, Williamson, Dev, Evans, Younis, Compton, Benaud, Shakib, Jadeja, Rabada, Statham, Lohman, Spofforth, Richardson, Hill, Healy, Bedser, Faulkner, Woolley, Boycott, May, Kanhai, G Smith, Lloyd, Crowe, Harvey, Willis, Philander, Underwood, Bedi, Benaud, Chandrashekhar, Trumble, Herath, Briggs, Greenidge, Chanderpaul, Shrewsbury, Simpson, Lyon, MaCartney.
Also, who are those footballers?? Never heard of them, and I believe I am moderately well versed in football....

Once again, your tier four is what we consider ATVG.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Once again, your tier four is what we consider ATVG.

YOU. And that's fine by me. I am considering hard whether to add a 5th tier or not and make ATG just my top 100 Test players..... Anyways, my main criticism of yours was having no trouble with rating Laker an ATG but losing **** over Ashwin.

 

[subshakerz]

YOU. And that's fine by me. I am considering hard whether to add a 5th tier or not and make ATG just my top 100 Test players..... Anyways, my main criticism of yours was having no trouble with rating Laker an ATG but losing **** over Ashwin.

I am not sure Laker is an ATG. In fact, I would rather not have him as one. My only confirmed ones are Warne, Murali and O'Reilly.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I am not sure Laker is an ATG. In fact, I would rather not have him as one. My only confirmed ones are Warne, Murali and O'Reilly.

That's the thing. You might have him as one, might not. But you hardly extend that courtesy to the ones who have Ashwin as one.

 

[ma1978]

Arguable that it isn't.

Then I don’t care. I don’t believe in analysis by checklist, and I’m very happy with how I consider things. I think if you’re the best player in the best team in the world at a given time, that covers a wide array of performances. Same if you’re the best at your specialty. And if you are there by weight of statistical accomplishments, that means you’ve performed well enough over your career.

Thisexcessive focus on away performance is the preserve of a group of India fans who grew up at a particular time.

SENA is not a thing - it only exists on this board.

In the real world, no one cares. And in the real world both Anderson and Ashwin are indisputable ATGs

 

[subshakerz]

That's the thing. You might have him as one, might not. But you hardly extend that courtesy to the ones who have Ashwin as one.

Of course, because I believe Laker is qualitatively better than Ashwin as he is better home and away. We just genuinely disagree on whether Ashwin's longevity makes up for this. I don't think Ashwin belongs in an ATG conversation anymore than Anderson.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Of course, because I believe Laker is qualitatively better than Ashwin as he is better home and away. We just genuinely disagree on whether Ashwin's longevity makes up for this. I don't think Ashwin belongs in an ATG conversation anymore than Anderson.

And again, I would have Anderson as an ATG over the likes of Waqar and Davidson, despite being worse bowler qualitatively...... But that's okay.

 

[ma1978]

Of course, because I believe Laker is qualitatively better than Ashwin as he is better home and away. We just genuinely disagree on whether Ashwin's longevity makes up for this. I don't think Ashwin belongs in an ATG conversation anymore than Anderson.

you are welcome to your own opinions, conspiracies theories, hopes and dreams etc but literally no one in the real world including people who saw Jjim Laker play and the cricket historian community would consider him greater

 

[subshakerz]

you are welcome to your own opinions, conspiracies theories, hopes and dreams etc but literally no one in the real world including people who saw Jjim Laker play and the cricket historian community would consider him greater

Stop doing this.

 

[ma1978]

Stop doing this.

why? I’m just stating common opinion. Prove me anything otherwise?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Stop doing this.

Yeah, I found his that habit quite infuriating as well.... I wasn't expecting to loose my mind in the Ponting vs Smith thread after already having it almost settled with you....

 

[Groundking]

This thread was better when you all were arguing about Anderson

 

[ma1978]

Yeah, I found his that habit quite infuriating as well.... I wasn't expecting to loose my mind in the Ponting vs Smith thread after already having it almost settled with you....

your problem is you’ve literally seen no one play

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

your problem is you’ve literally seen no one play

shut the **** up and give it a rest

 

[kyear2]

I just counted and there are 69 players in total I consider ATG..... Should add or remove a few......

Yeah I counted them as well, almost 70.

That's just way too much to be an exclusive club for me. Let's see if u can recall and list mine in order.

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Tendulkar

Tier 2
Richards / Steyn / Warne / Imran / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Hutton / Kallis / Gilchrist / Gavaskar / Ambrose

Tier 2 was difficult enough to rank (and please don't come at me, was harder than expected) so tier 3 in alphabetical order.

Tier 3
Chappell / Donald / Garner / Holding / Headley / Knott / Lillee / O'Reilly / G. Pollock / Ponting / Sangakkara / Sutcliffe / Trueman / Wasim

Arguments for (will try to keep it short)

Border / Miller / Waugh / Cummins / Lindwall / Davidson / Grimmett / Harvey / Benaud

Barrington / Verity / Laker/ Botham / Root / Anderson

Ashwin / Kumble / Dravid / Bedi / Dev / Bumrah*

Miandad / Waqar / Younis

G. Smith / S. Pollock / Tayfield / Richards* / Procter* / deVilliers

Walsh / Greenidge / Worrell / Walcott / Weekes / Roberts / Gibbs / Lloyd

Williamson / Crowe

Jayawardene / Herath

Way too much and took too long, will cut down over time.


I will add though, that with only 4 openers and 3 spinners making the cut, that in itself does provide a boosted argument for the likes of Smith and Ashwin, as it's apparently ****ing hard to break through at those positions. Added to that Ash brings his batting and Smith his catching. Border's captaincy and battling through the '80's adds to his case as well.

 

[subshakerz]

Yeah I counted them as well, almost 70.

That's just way too much to be an exclusive club for me. Let's see if u can recall and list mine in order.

Tier 1
Bradman / Sobers / Marshall / Hobbs / Hadlee / McGrath / Tendulkar

Tier 2
Richards / Steyn / Warne / Imran / Muralitharan / Smith / Lara / Hammond / Hutton / Kallis / Gilchrist / Gavaskar / Ambrose

Tier 2 was difficult enough to rank (and please don't come at me, was harder than expected) so tier 3 in alphabetical order.

Tier 3
Chappell / Donald / Garner / Holding / Headley / Knott / Lillee / O'Reilly / G. Pollock / Ponting / Sangakkara / Sutcliffe / Trueman / Wasim

Arguments for (will try to keep it short)

Border / Miller / Waugh / Cummins / Lindwall / Davidson / Grimmett / Harvey / Benaud

Barrington / Verity / Laker/ Botham / Root / Anderson

Ashwin / Kumble / Dravid / Bedi / Dev / Bumrah*

Miandad / Waqar / Younis

G. Smith / S. Pollock / Tayfield / Richards* / Procter* / deVilliers

Walsh / Greenidge / Worrell / Walcott / Weekes / Roberts / Gibbs / Lloyd

Williamson / Crowe

Jayawardene / Herath

Way too much and took too long, will cut down over time.


I will add though, that with only 4 openers and 3 spinners making the cut, that in itself does provide a boosted argument for the likes of Smith and Ashwin, as it's apparently ****ing hard to break through at those positions. Added to that Ash brings his batting and Smith his catching. Border's captaincy and battling through the '80's adds to his case as well.

Honestly, I would avoid tiers of ATGs myself. Just list them by discipline and then within that define who is top of the top. This is way more complicated and also makes it seems more arbitrary. Like why would Hobbs be a tier above Viv, or Marshall a tier above Imran as a cricketer?