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Rank these ATG batsmen against fast bowling

PlayerComparisons

International Captain
Rank these batsmen on how you’d think they do against the West Indian quartet (Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts) on pitches with pace, bounce, and seam movement.

Tendulkar
Lara
Smith
Williamson
Kohli
Ponting
Sangakkara
Kallis
Waugh
Dravid
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Rank these batsmen on how you’d think they do against the West Indian quartet (Marshall, Holding, Garner, Roberts) on pitches with pace, bounce, and seam movement.

Tendulkar
Lara
Smith
Williamson
Kohli
Ponting
Sangakkara
Kallis
Waugh
Dravid
Average 40 plus in series:
Ponting, Waugh

Average low/mid-30s:
Tendulkar, Kohli, Smith

Average below 30s:
Sanga, Dravid, Kallis, Williamson

Injured, dies mid-series:
Lara
 

Slifer

International Captain
Average 40 plus in series:
Ponting, Waugh

Average low/mid-30s:
Tendulkar, Kohli, Smith

Average below 30s:
Sanga, Dravid, Kallis, Williamson

Injured, dies mid-series:
Lara
That's a bit harsh on Lara. He'd average low 30s. He'll look awkward doing it but I'd go low 30s. I think Kohli and Smith may squeeze out a low 40s series. This is purely based on both doing the same vs RSA attacks that were pretty strong imo.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
That's a bit harsh on Lara. He'd average low 30s. He'll look awkward doing it but I'd go low 30s. I think Kohli and Smith may squeeze out a low 40s series. This is purely based on both doing the same vs RSA attacks that were pretty strong imo.
It ain't harsh on Lara. He has the worst technique of all of the batters here for high rising fast pace deliveries. Had the same issue at times with Donald, Lee, Bond, Shoaib and others, just the high back lift, cramped position, not anticipating the bounce and pace and then taking his eye off the ball at the last moment.

Lara would spend the entire series hopping around or doing risky cuts and pulls until a lifter from Marshall or Holding takes him out of commission.

Kohli yes will be high 30s, and maybe early 40s if there is a repeat series. Smith I don't think so. He did well against SA in 2013 but not in 2018 so he is still a gamble as he hasn't faced enough such attacks. But I put him Tendulkar level since his basic technique is somewhat sound enough to have never been exposed by any pacer, except maybe Archer.
 
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Slifer

International Captain
It ain't harsh on Lara. He has the worst technique of all of the batters here for high rising fast pace deliveries. Had the same issue at times with Donald, Lee, Bond, Shoaib and others, just the high back lift, cramped position, not anticipating the bounce and pace and then taking his eye off the ball at the last moment.

Lara would spend the entire series hopping around or doing risky cuts and pulls until a lifter from Marshall or Holding takes him out of commission.

Kohli yes will be high 30s, and maybe early 40s if there is a repeat series. Smith I don't think so. He did well against SA in 2013 but not in 2018 so he is still a gamble as he hasn't faced enough such attacks. But I put him Tendulkar level since his basic technique is somewhat sound enough to have never been exposed by any pacer.
Lara's overall average vs the faster pacemen of his time is low 30s, no reason to think he wouldn't do the same on bouncy pitches vs pace. Fun fact, Lara famously once faced up to Maco and Garner in domestic cricket and made 90 odd. Obviously, tests are a different kettle of fish.

Yes, Lara looked awkward vs pace but saying he'd die is an exaggeration i mean helmets are a thing now. He'd likely average low 30s vs them just as he did vs WWs and Donald.

Now take any of the above batsmen and put them straight into the 80s under 80s conditions, with minimal protection, unlimited bouncers on a spicy pitch, and they may all die. See Smith vs Archer or Ponting vs Harmison etc.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Lara's overall average vs the faster pacemen of his time is low 30s, no reason to think he wouldn't do the same on bouncy pitches vs pace. Fun fact, Lara famously once faced up to Maco and Garner in domestic cricket and made 90 odd. Obviously, tests are a different kettle of fish.
He has those averages against attacks including medium pacers and spinners, not this next level relentless pace one. So reasonable expectation would be his average is going to drop. I argue he has a good chance not making it through the series.

Yes, Lara looked awkward vs pace but saying he'd die is an exaggeration i mean helmets are a thing now. He'd likely average low 30s vs them just as he did vs WWs and Donald.
Die is only a maybe. Injured is a high possibility. You think smart, accurate bowlers like Marshall and Roberts with excellent bouncers aren't going to ruthlessly exploit his weakness? He is going to get a bouncer barrage. And unlike Tendulkar who was adaptable and never got owned in a series to any bowler, Lara did have series of repeatedly getting dominated by the same pacers.
 

Slifer

International Captain
It ain't harsh on Lara. He has the worst technique of all of the batters here for high rising fast pace deliveries. Had the same issue at times with Donald, Lee, Bond, Shoaib and others, just the high back lift, cramped position, not anticipating the bounce and pace and then taking his eye off the ball at the last moment.

Lara would spend the entire series hopping around or doing risky cuts and pulls until a lifter from Marshall or Holding takes him out of commission.

Kohli yes will be high 30s, and maybe early 40s if there is a repeat series. Smith I don't think so. He did well against SA in 2013 but not in 2018 so he is still a gamble as he hasn't faced enough such attacks. But I put him Tendulkar level since his basic technique is somewhat sound enough to have never been exposed by any pacer.
Here's a good read to explain Lara's issue with pace:

"Sir Conrad Hunte is concerned that Brian Lara is having problems with his eyesight. Hylton Ackerman has noted that the West Indies captain is the first "great batsman" he has seen jump when he plays a shot."

"The world’s highest-scoring batsman, who bounced back to form with a match-saving century at Old Trafford, suffers from tyrigium – a condition which causes a “skin” to grow over the eyeball. "

"Lara first suffered the problem during England’s visit to the Caribbean in 1994. He saw a doctor during the Old Trafford Test and drops were recommended. He says: “Viv Richards had successful surgery for this condition so I will do what I am told by the specialists."

Not sure if he ever had the surgery but the above might help explain things a bit. Maybe you already knew this and didn't care...
 

Slifer

International Captain
He has those averages against attacks including medium pacers and spinners, not this next level relentless pace one. So reasonable expectation would be his average is going to drop. I argue he has a good chance not making it through the series.


Die is only a maybe. Injured is a high possibility. You think smart, accurate bowlers like Marshall and Roberts with excellent bouncers aren't going to ruthlessly exploit his weakness? He is going to get a bouncer barrage. And unlike Tendulkar who was adaptable and never got owned in a series to any bowler, Lara did have series of repeatedly getting dominated by the same pacers.
Don't use Sachin as example because he did no better vs pace than Lara and we've both already discussed this at length. He too has never faced relentless pace by 4 pacemen. Therefore, given all that, he'd fail just as bad as Lara. For evidence see how both did collectively vs Donald, Bond and the WWs.

If you think Lara is averaging in the 20s or something you're high. Even at his worst, Australia 97, RSA 98 Lara squeezed out 30+ averages.
 

PlayerComparisons

International Captain
I think everyone would average in the 20s actually if all the bowlers are bowling at their best. Maybe some would average sub 20.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Here's a good read to explain Lara's issue with pace:

"Sir Conrad Hunte is concerned that Brian Lara is having problems with his eyesight. Hylton Ackerman has noted that the West Indies captain is the first "great batsman" he has seen jump when he plays a shot."

"The world’s highest-scoring batsman, who bounced back to form with a match-saving century at Old Trafford, suffers from tyrigium – a condition which causes a “skin” to grow over the eyeball. "

"Lara first suffered the problem during England’s visit to the Caribbean in 1994. He saw a doctor during the Old Trafford Test and drops were recommended. He says: “Viv Richards had successful surgery for this condition so I will do what I am told by the specialists."

Not sure if he ever had the surgery but the above might help explain things a bit. Maybe you already knew this and didn't care...
This is good to know but how does this help his case. If anything, it explains why he had such a handicap later in his career that hurt him against high pace whereas he didn't early on.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Don't use Sachin as example because he did no better vs pace than Lara and we've both already discussed this at length. He too has never faced relentless pace by 4 pacemen. Therefore, given all that, he'd fail just as bad as Lara. For evidence see how both did collectively vs Donald, Bond and the WWs.
The original question asked over the course of a series. Tendulkar is far more adaptable than Lara, can adjust his technique if necessary to still score (think of him in Aus 2003/4) and hasn't been dominated by any bowler in a series so much more inclined to think he will average 30 plus over a series.

If you think Lara is averaging in the 20s or something you're high. Even at his worst, Australia 97, RSA 98 Lara squeezed out 30+ averages.
Yeah Australia 97, RSA 98 where he was owned by McGrath and Donald respectively maxed at 30s, which is why facing an attack of 3-4 comparable bowlers at a time honed in on his specific weakness means he will average far less.
 

Slifer

International Captain
The original question asked over the course of a series. Tendulkar is far more adaptable than Lara, can adjust his technique if necessary to still score (think of him in Aus 2003/4) and hasn't been dominated by any bowler in a series so much more inclined to think he will average 30 plus over a series.


Yeah Australia 97, RSA 98 where he was owned by McGrath and Donald respectively maxed at 30s, which is why facing an attack of 3-4 comparable bowlers at a time honed in on his specific weakness means he will average far less.
He also did average 60+ vs McGrath at home and 40+ at home vs Donald and the Ws and at least 3 of the 5 traditional wkts do favor pace. My point? It's not a foregone conclusion he'd do any worse vs the 4 prong than the others in the list. Except for the likes of Waugh, Ponting, Smith and imo Kohli.
 

subshakerz

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
He also did average 60+ vs McGrath at home and 40+ at home vs Donald and the Ws and at least 3 of the 5 traditional wkts do favor pace. My point? It's not a foregone conclusion he'd do any worse vs the 4 prong than the others in the list. Except for the likes of Waugh, Ponting, Smith and imo Kohli.
Nah the only relevant one of those series is the early 90s one against 2Ws, before his eye problem started in 94 which you pointed out that made him shaky against pace. McGrath wasn't express pacer nor was Donald right towards career end when Lara faced him.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Nah the only relevant one of those series is the early 90s one against 2Ws, before his eye problem started in 94 which you pointed out that made him shaky against pace. McGrath wasn't express pacer nor was Donald right towards career end when Lara faced him.
I'll be honest brother, I'm only arguing because I'm bored. Lara would get owned by the 4 prong, without protection in the 80s on a fcked up Sabina pitch I'd fear for his safety. That applies to most of the others fwiw.
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
He also did average 60+ vs McGrath at home and 40+ at home vs Donald and the Ws and at least 3 of the 5 traditional wkts do favor pace. My point? It's not a foregone conclusion he'd do any worse vs the 4 prong than the others in the list. Except for the likes of Waugh, Ponting, Smith and imo Kohli.
Yeah but he a big HTB
 

Slifer

International Captain
Yeah but he a big HTB
"I'll be honest brother, I'm only arguing because I'm bored. Lara would get owned by the 4 prong, without protection in the 80s on a fcked up Sabina pitch I'd fear for his safety. That applies to most of the others fwiw."
 

Coronis

Hall of Fame Member
"I'll be honest brother, I'm only arguing because I'm bored. Lara would get owned by the 4 prong, without protection in the 80s on a fcked up Sabina pitch I'd fear for his safety. That applies to most of the others fwiw."
ik it was very unserious comment. Its only Lara anyway
 

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