Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

[Coronis]

I hate this, "everyone was doing it argument" , in a much older post it was suggested that Lillee and Snow lifted the seam repeatedly, Lillee got away with lots of ****, that's not surprising, but what I've read here seemed to exceed just doing that. Pushing the boundaries has always been part of cricket, Grace refused to walk, bowlers used hair grease and sun screen instead of just sweat, batsmen would hit the leather of the ball and not walk (yes I consider this as well), but some things go beyond. And for the record, if someone shows any kind of proof of us doing the same to that extent, even MM, I would criticize him the same.

You mean literally every batsman not named Gilchrist.

 

[subshakerz]

The thing is with the 'everyone was doing it' is that it meant lax enforcement from umpires on this issue at the time. I don't see why players should be penalised in this regard.

For me, whether it was scratching the ball, throwing it on one side to the bowler on the rough to scuff it up, lifting the seam or using gel or whatever substance, I don't judge the players of that time if the signal from umpires is that this was acceptable in the 80s. With better awareness and camerawork, these practices became more tightly regulated upon from the 90s onwards.

Yes, it gets egregious when an external item like a bottlecap is used to de-shape the ball, which Imran himself admitted to do in a county game once, and those incidents should be condemned.

 

[honestbharani]

Surely, like with the Aussies in 2017, its obvious to everyone that picking the seam with nails or using saliva is not the same as using a foreign object like sandpaper and bottlecaps as they do provide significantly more damage to one side of the ball than some part of the human body does, right?

 

[smash84]

Surely, like with the Aussies in 2017, its obvious to everyone that picking the seam with nails or using saliva is not the same as using a foreign object like sandpaper and bottlecaps as they do provide significantly more damage to one side of the ball than some part of the human body does, right?

Absolutely. And hence you should read this.

IMRAN_QUOTE_BALL-TAMP_09MAY94

"When Ivo Tennant asked me:'Have you ever cheated in your 21 year international career?' never did I realise that my answer would creat such a rumpus

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[smash84]

Absolutely. And hence you should read this.

IMRAN_QUOTE_BALL-TAMP_09MAY94

"When Ivo Tennant asked me:'Have you ever cheated in your 21 year international career?' never did I realise that my answer would creat such a rumpus

www.espncricinfo.com

This is also discussed a lot more in detail in that interview posted earlier.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

When more than 25 people accuse some one of any 'particular quilt' , their has to be lots of credibility in that assusation.

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good because the majority thinks so. Now how many of them provided evidence other than talking bull**** on cameras.

 

[honestbharani]

Absolutely. And hence you should read this.

IMRAN_QUOTE_BALL-TAMP_09MAY94

"When Ivo Tennant asked me:'Have you ever cheated in your 21 year international career?' never did I realise that my answer would creat such a rumpus

www.espncricinfo.com

I dont care. I got subzi and kyear to like the same post.

 

[smash84]

I dont care. I got subzi and kyear to like the same post.

I must admit, that is some achievement.

 

[Coronis]

Surely, like with the Aussies in 2017, its obvious to everyone that picking the seam with nails or using saliva is not the same as using a foreign object like sandpaper and bottlecaps as they do provide significantly more damage to one side of the ball than some part of the human body does, right?

I want a test cricketer with big ass fake nails.

 

[kyear2]

I must admit, that is some achievement.

Contrary to his stated goal of lowering Ambrose in the eyes of the forum, I have no such agenda vs Imran.

I don't like the apologists argument, like that makes everything ok.

 

[smash84]

internet vs Imran.

As if the pakistan military wasn't enough, Imran is literally fighting the whole world now

 

[honestbharani]

As if the pakistan military wasn't enough, Imran is literally fighting the whole world now

Unfortunately, no one ever beats the internet. In the end, he is just gonna become one of us.

And given your posts, I have strong reasons to feel he already is.

 

[rtramdas]

No body would argue that ball tampering is a silly offense because every body as of now is well aware as to what happend to the core Aussie players related to the 'sand paper gate' incident . Such a mammoth test batsman as Steven Smith got his career cut short for a whole year at the peak of his form just because of the fact that he was the captain of the team.

I had provided a long detailed analysis with several links associated with this particular matter . Every body going thru that can extract their own conclusions w.r.t the extends to which each of these bowlers went w.r.t this unethical unfair act of 'ball tampering' .

A bowler against which more than 25 contemporaries have provided testimonies w.r.t this unethical act is a serial offender in my book , and hence
losses a lot of credibility w.r.t 'greatness'. No 2 ways about it . Again , how ever intensely some people try to defend Imran, it is a fact that more and more people are getting intensely critical of his acts and there by doubting his 'cricketing greatness' by the day. Several cricketing forums are testimonies to this fact.

Personally no point in wasting time on further debates on this topic .Every body can have their own conclusions.

 

[subshakerz]

No body would argue that ball tampering is a silly offense because every body as of now is well aware as to what happend to the core Aussie players related to the 'sand paper gate' incident . Such a mammoth test batsman as Steven Smith got his career cut short for a whole year at the peak of his form just because of the fact that he was the captain of the team.

I had provided a long detailed analysis with several links associated with this particular matter . Every body going thru that can extract their own conclusions w.r.t the extends to which each of these bowlers went w.r.t this unethical unfair act of 'ball tampering' .

A bowler against which more than 25 contemporaries have provided testimonies w.r.t this unethical act is a serial offender in my book , and hence
losses a lot of credibility w.r.t 'greatness'. No 2 ways about it . Again , how ever intensely some people try to defend Imran, it is a fact that more and more people are getting intensely critical of his acts and there by doubting his 'cricketing greatness' by the day. Several cricketing forums are testimonies to this fact.

Personally no point in wasting time on further debates on this topic .Every body can have their own conclusions.

No you miss the point. Testimonies are irrelevant. Imran already admitted his own tampering. We must assume that almost every bowler of that era was a tamperer though to some degree given lax umpiring regulations of it. So if you have evidence that Imran did extra bad tampering throughout his career, for which you have none, you should let this rest.

Nothing is going to diminish Imran's achievements. You can sulk if you wish though.

 

[subshakerz]

Unfortunately, no one ever beats the internet. In the end, he is just gonna become one of us.

And given your posts, I have strong reasons to feel he already is.

He is already using AI to give speeches and write articles. Posting is next.

 

[kyear2]

No you miss the point. Testimonies are irrelevant. Imran already admitted his own tampering. We must assume that almost every bowler of that era was a tamperer though to some degree given lax umpiring regulations of it. So if you have evidence that Imran did extra bad tampering throughout his career, for which you have none, you should let this rest.

Nothing is going to diminish Imran's achievements. You can sulk if you wish though.

It is rich for the man who has spent the past couple of months trying to diminish Kallis's and Ambrose's achievements (to no success mind you), and for the benefit of same Imran no less, for you would take such umbrage to this now.

That being said, the highlighted part is bull****. We "must assume"? So because one person did, and passed it on no less, it's assumed that everyone did? I am under no illusion that he was the only one, but to broadly involve every player from the era is disingenuous, trying to create a false moral equivalence, and borderline dishonest.

While you are stating that with out evidence that Imran carried out additional levels of ball tampering that he should "let it rest", without any evidence, be it anecdotal, testimonial, physical or otherwise, you're assigning the same designation to everyone?

Looking back through the forum over the years, the only prominent names mentioned with regards to same were Lillee and Snow, and even then with no reference to degree of tampering nor names attached. The poster on the other hand sent lots of articles from former Pakistani players detailing what they experienced, some of it extreme. So while it's not "evidence" in it's strictest form, it's considerably more that you have presented to condemn every bowler of that or previous eras.

 

[subshakerz]

It is rich for the man who has spent the past couple of months trying to diminish Kallis's and Ambrose's achievements (to no success mind you), and for the benefit of same Imran no less, for you would take such umbrage to this now.

That being said, the highlighted part is bull****. We "must assume"? So because one person did, and passed it on no less, it's assumed that everyone did? I am under no illusion that he was the only one, but to broadly involve every player from the era is disingenuous, trying to create a false moral equivalence, and borderline dishonest.

While you are stating that with out evidence that Imran carried out additional levels of ball tampering that he should "let it rest", without any evidence, be it anecdotal, testimonial, physical or otherwise, you're assigning the same designation to everyone?

Looking back through the forum over the years, the only prominent names mentioned with regards to same were Lillee and Snow, and even then with no reference to degree of tampering nor names attached. The poster on the other hand sent lots of articles from former Pakistani players detailing what they experienced, some of it extreme. So while it's not "evidence" in it's strictest form, it's considerably more that you have presented to condemn every bowler of that or previous eras.

Enough with the moral sanctimony, my friend.

Yes, tampering was rife in the 80s, based on countless reports. Holding and Hadlee have all but admitted their sides did it too. You seriously think at a time with home umpires as the norm and poor camera footage that it wouldn't be the case that sides with scratch or lift seams or apply gel or whatever when they get the chance? I would never believe it was just a few bad apples with Imran as an extra rotten one like you.

 

[honestbharani]

moral sanctimony

Are there other types of sanctimony?

 

[kyear2]

Enough with the moral sanctimony, my friend.

Yes, tampering was rife in the 80s, based on countless reports. Holding and Hadlee have all but admitted their sides did it too. You seriously think at a time with home umpires as the norm and poor camera footage that it wouldn't be the case that sides with scratch or lift seams or apply gel or whatever when they get the chance? I would never believe it was just a few bad apples with Imran as an extra rotten one like you.

And that's it right there, that's all you need isn't it.

Not surprising, considering the last 10 plus threads you opened, were literally all related to Imran and trying to push and highlight his accomplishments. Nah, you can't possibly believe that.

Oh, and once again you misrepresented that Hadlee and Holding said, and also missing any form of condemnation, comments, confirmations, criticism with regards to any of it with regards to any of them of their teams.

But carry on.

 

[subshakerz]

And that's it right there, that's all you need isn't it.

Not surprising, considering the last 10 plus threads you opened, were literally all related to Imran and trying to push and highlight his accomplishments. Nah, you can't possibly believe that.

Oh, and once again you misrepresented that Hadlee and Holding said, and also missing any form of condemnation, comments, confirmations, criticism with regards to any of it with regards to any of them of their teams.

But carry on.

Wait, do you believe it was a few bad apples or that tampering was rife at that time? Which is it? State your position clearly for once without all this soft denialism.