kyear2
International Coach
Someone should start a thread then.Because when you focus on one position people will think differently.
The obvious options would be Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Wasim?
Someone should start a thread then.Because when you focus on one position people will think differently.
Steyn isn't far behind Imran as a reverse swing bowler imo. He just had fewer chances to show it but he bowled several of the deadliest spells of old ball reverse swing I've ever seen.Yup. Imran to me is the greatest exponent of reverse swing ever and hence edges Steyn on bowling alone for me as third seamer, regardless of the debate on their overall standing.
Steyn as a new ball bowled will be overshadowed by McGrath, Marshall and Hadlee.
Yup I agree. Steyn had some great reverse swing spells, none better than Kanpur 2010. It is just that Imran's natural inswinger and the level of swing he achieved with reverse made him a bit extra deadly.Steyn isn't far behind Imran as a reverse swing bowler imo. He just had fewer chances to show it but he bowled several of the deadliest spells of old ball reverse swing I've ever seen.
Do you think moving the ball more helps with reverse? It starts moving earlier, and makes it easier for quality bats to predict the trajectory.Yup I agree. Steyn had some great reverse swing spells, none better than Kanpur 2010. It is just that Imran's natural inswinger and the level of swing he achieved with reverse made him a bit extra deadly.
No, with Imran, it was sharp late movement and in-dipping.Do you think moving the ball more helps with reverse? It starts moving earlier, and makes it easier for quality bats to predict the trajectory.
The sharp late movement applies more to Steyn, yes? Faster, fuller, and skiddier typically makes for later movement, and what I have seen of Imran, the ball starts moving noticeably earlier.No, with Imran, it was sharp late movement and in-dipping.
The sharp later was more Imran.The sharp late movement applies more to Steyn, yes? Faster, fuller, and skiddier typically makes for later movement, and what I have seen of Imran, the ball starts moving noticeably earlier.
Possibly a moot point though if there are times when Steyn wouldn't be getting enough swing to count, but Imran would.
Well if you have Marshall and Warne you’ve already got two specialist no. 8’sBut why? Imran is literally there as an option, and the same amount of persons chose Marshall, Warne, Steyn, McGrath so obviously it's not a priority for everyone to have a specialist no. 8. Again, not saying it wouldn't have it's benefits, but not everyone prefers it
Neither alone is good enough at 8 IMO assuming you have three tailenders following averaging single digits after that.Well if you have Marshall and Warne you’ve already got two specialist no. 8’s
Wtf am I reading? What does the batting position of the 4th in quality bowler have to do with how much he needs to bowl? Are we just assuming he's going to perform worse or be more tired because he has a very slightly higher batting load per match? If so, color me confused.If you don't have a good WK batsman you probably need your fourth bowler to bat 7, in which case they need to bowl more.
The thread and poll was for "best attack". You didn't ask for "best bottom 4", which is a subtle but meaningful difference.Acknowledged and agreed.
The attached isn't definitive by any means, but shows not everyone chooses either at 8.
View attachment 37003
lol it was mostly tongue in cheek since both played the majority of their careers at the 8 spot.Neither alone is good enough at 8 IMO assuming you have three tailenders following averaging single digits after that.
Not if you are playing another ATG XI, then you need an amped up tail.lol it was mostly tongue in cheek since both played the majority of their careers at the 8 spot.
Assuming you have both in your team (which the majority of XI’s I’ve seen here do) thats more than enough batting for your tail imo - its just fortunate that two of the greatest (if not the greatest) bowlers of pace/spin also happened to be capable bats.
Exactlylol it was mostly tongue in cheek since both played the majority of their careers at the 8 spot.
Assuming you have both in your team (which the majority of XI’s I’ve seen here do) thats more than enough batting for your tail imo - its just fortunate that two of the greatest (if not the greatest) bowlers of pace/spin also happened to be capable bats.
Again you're confusing your preference with a consensus.Not if you are playing another ATG XI, then you need an amped up tail.
All-rounder to me means someone who can regularly bat in the top seven and is one of five regular bowlers.Again you're confusing your preference with a consensus.
I personally believe that Maco and Warne are good enough at 8 and 9, but also acknowledge that like you a plurality may prefer Imran or Hadlee in that spot. My guess is probably a 60 / 40 split but by no means a lock.
In CW we have this fixation with the term all rounder and have arbitrary numbers to establish players into this categories. But Marshall and Warne could both bat, quite capably actually, and I've seen both of them do so. Hammond may not have hit the arbitrary wpm total but was an excellent 5th bowler, sure Simpson could fill that role as well. Hell, as I've said to great push back before, Ponting, Chappell among some of the ATG bats can be seen as same.
For me it's more about being able to fill a role that a standard and as a result a lot of good all round cricketers are somewhat discredited
That's a serious generalization. Both have batted innings where they were needed either to win or hang onto for a draw. Marshall has a famous example in '84 with a broken arm.All-rounder to me means someone who can regularly bat in the top seven and is one of five regular bowlers.
Marshall and Warne are useful bats but a lot of their runs are downhill skiing towards the end of an innings of a super strong batting lineup and tired bowlers rather than serious knocks under normal batting pressure. Guarantee you that if they came up the order, their averages would drop like rocks.
There is a gulf between them and a proper lower order bat like Imran or even Hadlee who built their averages while actually being depended on for scoring.
Nobody called them all rounders lol.All-rounder to me means someone who can regularly bat in the top seven and is one of five regular bowlers.
Marshall and Warne are useful bats but a lot of their runs are downhill skiing towards the end of an innings of a super strong batting lineup and tired bowlers rather than serious knocks under normal batting pressure. Guarantee you that if they came up the order, their averages would drop like rocks.
There is a gulf between them and a proper lower order bat like Imran or even Hadlee who built their averages while actually being depended on for scoring.
9 and below, I agree. 8 I think you really, really want one.Nobody called them all rounders lol.
This #batdeep **** is getting ridiculous.
Hell Cummins batted us to an Ashes win and he isn’t as good a bat as either of them. You don’t need allrounders batting at 8 or below. You need the best bowlers available.