Ravindra Jadeja vs Saqlain Mushtaq

[R!TTER]

That's because the pitches in NZ/Eng have progressively gone worse for spinners & become much more seamer friendly since at least 2010/11 onwards -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

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Only 11 spin bowlers avg under 30 with the ball post 2010, as compared to 25 from 2000-10 which can be contrasted with -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

34 spin bowlers avg over 30 with the ball, since 2010 or so, against 25 in the 2000-10 span!

So basically it was 1:1 wrt spin bowlers avg under/over 30 in the noughties as opposed to slightly over 1:3 post 2010 for spinners in the list.

In the age of DRS it can't only be down to "poor spinners" - if anything the pitches have turned a complete joke for spin in NZ & to a much lesser extent in Eng as well.

 

[subshakerz]

That's because the pitches in NZ/Eng have progressively gone worse for spinners & become much more seamer friendly since at least 2010/11 onwards -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Only 11 spin bowlers avg under 30 with the ball post 2010, as compared to 25 from 2000-10 which can be contrasted with -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

34 spin bowlers avg over 30 with the ball, since 2010 or so, against 25 in the 2000-10 span!

So basically it was 1:1 wrt spin bowlers avg under/over 30 in the noughties as opposed to slightly over 1:3 post 2010 for spinners in the list.

In the age of DRS it can't only be down to "poor spinners" - if anything the pitches have turned a complete joke for spin in NZ & to a much lesser extent in Eng as well.

Have pitches in India become better or worse for spinners 2010/11 onwards compared to the decade before?

 

[R!TTER]

Yes, much better for spin but you also have to take into account DRS -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

No way Hayden or KP sweep as effectively as they did if DRS was in effect in their times! But that's a separate debate altogether.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Have pitches in India become better or worse for spinners 2010/11 onwards compared to the decade before?

Isn't this a bit cyclical though?
The wickets have gotten better so Ashwin and Jadeja (bowling in tandem as a pair - don't reckon Kumble + Bhaji were as destructive) took more wickets so India won more games because India were good because Ashwin and Jadeja took a lot of wickets because the wickets got better...

It's not just "the wickets got better" - it's a mixture of everything.
Shami and Bumrah average just about 20 at home too since 2011...Umesh Yadav averages <25. The wickets can't have gotten better for spinners AND pace too?

The wickets don't assist spin as much outside of sub continent, so Ashwin and Jadeja haven't had quite as much success there - but Jadeja's been pretty good in Australia and South Africa, albeit in limited numbers.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, much better for spin but you also have to take into account DRS -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

No way Hayden or KP sweep as effectively as they did if DRS was in effect in their times! But that's a separate debate altogether.

So if you contend that Jadeja not doing well in Eng/NZ has more to do with pitches, then logically you concede that him doing very well in India also has to do with pitches, yes?

I mean, look at those numbers, it's pretty undeniable.

 

[subshakerz]

Isn't this a bit cyclical though?
The wickets have gotten better so Ashwin and Jadeja (bowling in tandem as a pair - don't reckon Kumble + Bhaji were as destructive) took more wickets so India won more games because India were good because Ashwin and Jadeja took a lot of wickets because the wickets got better...

It's not just "the wickets got better" - it's a mixture of everything.
Shami and Bumrah average just about 20 at home too since 2011...Umesh Yadav averages <25. The wickets can't have gotten better for spinners AND pace too?

The wickets don't assist spin as much outside of sub continent, so Ashwin and Jadeja haven't had quite as much success there - but Jadeja's been pretty good in Australia and South Africa, albeit in limited numbers.

If you look at Indian cricket history, you will see a host of spinners who averaged around 25 or below at home. Yes, Jadeja and Ashwin have better numbers than them but that to me is more about pitches than them being significantly ahead of others in skill.

Just check those stats and it is pretty easy to see this has been one of if not the best decades for spinners in India.

 

[OverratedSanity]

It's not just "the wickets got better" - it's a mixture of everything.
Shami and Bumrah average just about 20 at home too since 2011...Umesh Yadav averages <25. The wickets can't have gotten better for spinners AND pace too?

They kind of have. India has been producing a mixture of seam friendly and spin friendly tracks for a few years now. Very few rawalpindi style roads where all bowlers have no hope.

 

[R!TTER]

So if you contend that Jadeja not doing well in Eng/NZ has more to do with pitches, then logically you concede that him doing very well in India also has to do with pitches, yes?

I mean, look at those numbers, it's pretty undeniable.

Sure & I never denied that but IMO the DRS has had a more profound impact on their(Ashwin/Jadeja) numbers at home than the pitches.

 

[honestbharani]

They kind of have. India has been producing a mixture of seam friendly and spin friendly tracks for a few years now. Very few rawalpindi style roads where all bowlers have no hope.

Chennai 2021 the first test

 

[Sunil1z]

Chennai 2021 the first test

That was a batting 1st wicket . It further proved that India’s batting has declined massively in last few years.

India used to win on pitches like that till 2019. It is from 2020 onwards our batting has become so bad that if opposition wins toss and scores 450 , we have no hope at all.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, much better for spin but you also have to take into account DRS -

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

No way Hayden or KP sweep as effectively as they did if DRS was in effect in their times! But that's a separate debate altogether.

These stats are pretty astonishing.

In the entire 2000s decade, you didn't have a single foreign spinner who took more than 10 wickets in a series in India at a sub 30 average except for Krezja in that debut test.

Since 2010, you have had eight bowlers do that, including sub-par guys like Harmer, Tahir and O'Keefe.

That's pretty ridiculous and if anything, just cements the notion that pitches have been so out of the norm spin friendly that it ends up flattering the figures of Jadeja and co.

Of course, some Indian fans will deny that and chalk it up to next level skills of Jadeja, Axar and Ashwin, but it seems pretty clear that it is not the case if foreign spinners, including ordinary ones, can take so many wickets cheaply.

 

[subshakerz]

Sure & I never denied that but IMO the DRS has had a more profound impact on their(Ashwin/Jadeja) numbers at home than the pitches.

But spinners like Saqlain didn't have the advantage of the DRS.

 

[Sunil1z]

These stats are pretty astonishing.

In the entire 2000s decade, you didn't have a single foreign spinner who took more than 10 wickets in a series in India at a sub 30 average except for Krezja in that debut test.

Since 2010, you have had eight bowlers do that, including guys like Harmer, Tahir and O'Keefe.

That's pretty ridiculous and if anything, just cements the notion that pitches have been so out of the norm spin friendly that it ends up flattering the figures of Jadeja and co.

Of course, some Indian fans will deny that, but it seems pretty clear.

So the opposite of that is both Kohli and Pujara would have been averaging 55 if they had been batting on Pakistani roads ?

 

[subshakerz]

So the opposite of that is both Kohli and Pujara would have been averaging 55 if they had been batting on Pakistani roads ?

Averaging 55 in Pakistan? Sure.

How do you interpret those spin numbers? I am still surprised at the level of spin effectiveness 2010 onwards.

 

[Sunil1z]

Averaging 55 in Pakistan? Sure.

Both Kohli and Pujara average around 55 on these spin friendly wickets . They would have definitely averaged 65-70 on Pakistani style roads resulting in overall average around 50 for Pujara and 55 for Kohli .

 

[subshakerz]

Both Kohli and Pujara average around 55 on these spin friendly wickets . They would have definitely averaged 65-70 on Pakistani style roads resulting in overall average around 50 for Pujara and 55 for Kohli .

Yes agreed because Sehwag and Dravid also averaged highly on the flat pancakes in Pakistan so this is completely believable. What is your point?

 

[Sunil1z]

Averaging 55 in Pakistan? Sure.

How do you interpret those spin numbers? I am still surprised at the level of spin effectiveness 2010 onwards.

DRS + Spin friendly wickets+ lesser good players of spin ( from opposition perspective) .

DRS + spin friendly wickets+ lesser good players of spin + a lethal pace attack ( from Indian perspective)

 

[Sunil1z]

Yee agreed because Sehwag and Dravid also averaged highly on the flat pancakes in Pakistan so this is completely believable. What is your point?

My point is should Kohli and Pujara be treated as 55 and 50+ Test batsman?
Because you can’t have both ways : if you want to penalise spinners for bowling on friendly wickets then you have to reward batsmen for scoring runs on those same wickets.

 

[subshakerz]

DRS + spin friendly wickets+ lesser good players of spin + a lethal pace attack ( from Indian perspective)

Basically admitting my point at the beginning that Jedeja had all these advantages that Saqlain did not have, accounting for the difference in home numbers.

 

[subshakerz]

My point is should Kohli and Pujara be treated as 55 and 50+ Test batsman?
Because you can’t have both ways : if you want to penalise spinners for bowling on friendly wickets then you have to reward batsmen for scoring runs on those same wickets.

Yeah except they never actually played on those wickets so why reward them for hypothetical runs?