Dale Steyn vs Imran khan

[ZK$]

I don't agree with the umbrella statement that (average being equal) you want a bowler with a higher strike rate over one with a lower economy. It depends on a lot of factors and the high strike-rate bowler comes with downsides to go with the wicket-taking

All I’m saying is that you want bowlers who can consistently take wickets in difficult conditions instead of just holding an end up. I wouldn’t pick Steyn over McGrath, but I would pick Steyn over Pollock.

 

[subshakerz]

He definitely didn't like the duke. Not suited to the the kind of nibble movement that works best in England (which is partly the duke).

Not as bad as his stats suggest though. Played in England at the only times they have had powerhouse batting in decades, and on some serious roads. Best bowler by far in 2012 when peak Philander and Jimmy were playing (who were suited). Took 7 wickets in one of his other 2 matches.

You would expect a bunch of other top bowlers to have done better than him in his circumstances, but not by the extent that bullying 90s England bats on 90s pitches would suggest.

In 2008, Steyn was poor in the first test albeit on a batting deck, and then much better on a more sporting pitch in next test.

In 2012, he was excellent in the Oval taking a fifer in the last innings on a batting deck, was pummeled in the second test by KP and last test was ok but Philander stole the show.

Overall, his record was good but for an ATG bowler to be above 30 in England is a disappointment even with the tough pitches.

 

[vicleggie]

Daley Steyn will NEVER be important enough that someone tries to assassinate him.

Imran for sure.

 

[subshakerz]

All I’m saying is that you want bowlers who can consistently take wickets in difficult conditions instead of just holding an end up. I wouldn’t pick Steyn over McGrath, but I would pick Steyn over Pollock.

Except when we talk about SR for ATGs there is a normative range outside of which the bowler's quality suffers, beyond maybe 54/55. Pollock has a high SR of nearly 58, so Steyn would clearly be ahead of him.

Steyn has nearly a 1 run difference in ER with Ambrose which in the context of a match is notable.

When you boil it down in statistical terms, Steyn bowls around 4 overs less per test on average than Ambrose, while taking half a wicket more and giving around 22 runs more.

 

[ZK$]

Except when we talk about SR for ATGs there is a normative range outside of which the bowler's quality suffers, beyond maybe 54/55.

Yeah, this is the point that I was trying to make. It doesn’t matter too much after a certain point. It’s probably useful to split it into home and away as well. Pollocks strike rate away from home is around 65. Most ATGs are in the 45-55 range. That’s a pretty big difference.

 

[Bolo.]

You're right in that Ambrose can still average 20 but not be as effective, because the batsmen can play him out and score at the other end so even though his average is the same, he's not as dangerous in the context of the game.

I don't agree with the umbrella statement that (average being equal) you want a bowler with a higher strike rate over one with a lower economy. It depends on a lot of factors and the high strike-rate bowler comes with downsides to go with the wicket-taking

This isn't really what people are discussing though- it's about how much difference having the main(ish) bowler striking fast makes. Excluding the main bowler (and including whatever the 5th or part timers bowl), the typical attack probably averages in the mid 30s. Leaving them to take wickets costs a lot of runs.

There are definitely gonna be times when you want an ATG bowling economically instead of striking faster (even if the other bowlers are spuds), but they are pretty rare.

 

[Xuhaib]

It's my personal opinion and others can disagree to it I have no issues

I genuinely think Senaw pacers are at a slight advantage over sub cont pacers since they bowl at sub cont batsman in their favorable conditions while sub cont pacers bowl at SENAW batsman in their favourite conditions.

I am not one that believes that bowling mainly in Asia is tougher for pacers they grow up in these conditions so they learn to adjust and it makes it there preferred conditions t but I genuinely think for a batter to adjust from a high bounce conditions is easier to low bounce then vice versa. So a SENAW batsman should find it easier to handle pacers in Asia in comparison to Asian batsman playing in SENAW

Ofcouse that advantage is not that significant that it elimantes the gap between Srinath & McGrath but in a case like Steyn vs Imran it does imo.

 

[Prince EWS]

It's my personal opinion and others can disagree to it I have no issues

I genuinely think Senaw pacers are at a slight advantage over sub cont pacers since they bowl at sub cont batsman in their favorable conditions while sub cont pacers bowl at SENAW batsman in their favourite conditions.

I am not one that believes that bowling mainly in Asia is tougher for pacers they grow up in these conditions so they learn to adjust and it makes it there preferred conditions t but I genuinely think for a batter to adjust from a high bounce conditions is easier to low bounce then vice versa. So a SENAW batsman should find it easier to handle pacers in Asia in comparison to Asian batsman playing in SENAW

Ofcouse that advantage is not that significant that it elimantes the gap between Srinath & McGrath but in a case like Steyn vs Imran it does imo.

100%.

 

[Xuhaib]

Daley Steyn will NEVER be important enough that someone tries to assassinate him.

Imran for sure.

Whats if he's banging the neighbors wife and he finds out?

 

[Prince EWS]

Whats if he's banging the neighbors wife and he finds out?

"Oh it's only Dale, meh."

 

[vicleggie]

Whats if he's banging the neighbors wife and he finds out?

It is Imran who is more likely than Steyn to be found banging his neighbour's wife...even at his age

 

[vicleggie]

"Oh it's only Dale, meh."

Dude had some serious Small D Energy, with his over-the-top barbaric celebrations after a wicket

 

[subshakerz]

It's my personal opinion and others can disagree to it I have no issues

I genuinely think Senaw pacers are at a slight advantage over sub cont pacers since they bowl at sub cont batsman in their favorable conditions while sub cont pacers bowl at SENAW batsman in their favourite conditions.

I am not one that believes that bowling mainly in Asia is tougher for pacers they grow up in these conditions so they learn to adjust and it makes it there preferred conditions t but I genuinely think for a batter to adjust from a high bounce conditions is easier to low bounce then vice versa. So a SENAW batsman should find it easier to handle pacers in Asia in comparison to Asian batsman playing in SENAW

Ofcouse that advantage is not that significant that it elimantes the gap between Srinath & McGrath but in a case like Steyn vs Imran it does imo.

Yes totally agreed. Subcontinent pacers succeed in spite of home conditions more than because of them. Which is why I find the 'succeeded in a batting era' argument wrong for Steyn.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yes totally agreed. Subcontinent pacers succeed in spite of home conditions more than because of them. Which is why I find the 'succeeded in a batting era' argument wrong for Steyn.

Yeah Steyn was definitely a top ten quick of all time IMO but I'm not giving him many extra points for 'batting era' when he got to play half his games in South Africa. He doesn't need them though, bloke averaged <23.

My standardised averages project changed Imran's average from 22.81 to 22.28, and Steyn's from 22.95 to 21.99. In other words, neither of them really got the rough end of the pineapple by very much for different reasons in the end, and they're close enough that who was better will/should probably come down to whatever else you value (longevity, peaks, analysis by checklist, most likely to impregnate Steyn's neighbour, etc etc).

 

[ZK$]

I don’t like the “he averages worse or the same away from home so he wouldn’t have benefited from better home conditions” argument.

 

[honestbharani]

It's my personal opinion and others can disagree to it I have no issues

I genuinely think Senaw pacers are at a slight advantage over sub cont pacers since they bowl at sub cont batsman in their favorable conditions while sub cont pacers bowl at SENAW batsman in their favourite conditions.

I am not one that believes that bowling mainly in Asia is tougher for pacers they grow up in these conditions so they learn to adjust and it makes it there preferred conditions t but I genuinely think for a batter to adjust from a high bounce conditions is easier to low bounce then vice versa. So a SENAW batsman should find it easier to handle pacers in Asia in comparison to Asian batsman playing in SENAW

Ofcouse that advantage is not that significant that it elimantes the gap between Srinath & McGrath but in a case like Steyn vs Imran it does imo.

I am not sure I entirely agree. I do think its physically less dangerous to attune to low bounce from high bounce, but there is still a very high chance of losing your wicket with that adjustment.

Now, if you tell me that the SC pitches on average tend to be higher scoring than SENAW pitches, then totally agree. It just means the baseline for good performance from both batting and bowling PoV needs to be adjusted with that in mind.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t like the “he averages worse or the same away from home so he wouldn’t have benefited from better home conditions” argument.

Yes. For example, Wasim averages 28 in England. Definitely, its an underachievement, but I dont believe for a second that he would average that if his home career was in England.

 

[subshakerz]

I am not sure I entirely agree. I do think its physically less dangerous to attune to low bounce from high bounce, but there is still a very high chance of losing your wicket with that adjustment.

Now, if you tell me that the SC pitches on average tend to be higher scoring than SENAW pitches, then totally agree. It just means the baseline for good performance from both batting and bowling PoV needs to be adjusted with that in mind.

I having seen many SENAW batsmen struggling in the SC due to low bounce specifically, more due to spin or slow paced wickets.

 

[ashley bach]

It is Imran who is more likely than Steyn to be found banging his neighbour's wife...even at his age

Yup

 

[ashley bach]

Just saw the footage in Pakistan, if that guy was acting alone I'll eat my hat.