Kevin Pietersen vs Joe Root

[OverratedSanity]

Root probably better at this point but its definitely close. Dont agree with @Flem274* that Root is some bastion of consistency either, he's had some bad troughs.

We did remarkably well to get what we did out of him, and at the end his knee was ****ed, not sure what else we could have gotten.

This take always baffles me. No you didnt kick KP out at the right time. You binned him and had a conga line of 25-30 averaging mediocre middle order bats replace him and lose you plenty of games. The English team wouldve been better with him even in decline ,absolutely no way anyone can deny it. He was also told to go and score runs in county cricket, and when he went and smashed a run a ball 250, england went yeah nah we arent selecting you. He was a **** but very poorly treated.

 

[grecian]

Root probably better at this point but its definitely close. Dont agree with @Flem274* that Root is some bastion of consistency either, he's had some bad troughs.



This take always baffles me. No you didnt kick KP out at the right time. You binned him and had a conga line of 25-30 averaging mediocre middle order bats replace him and lose you plenty of games. The English team wouldve been better with him even in decline ,absolutely no way anyone can deny it. He was also told to go and score runs in county cricket, and when he went and smashed a run a ball 250, england went yeah nah we arent selecting you. He was a **** but very poorly treated.

Again he played 100s of times for England, which is pretty good as he was a ****, his best days were behind, him, and so would rather have a mediocre bat who wasn't a ****, rather than a slightly better one who was.

Honestly he just couldn't come back, he'd leaked everything in an incredibly skewed way to the most obnoxious tabloid ****, apart from Kelvin McKenzie, which meant any England place was untenable, not sure how a double ton changed that, he would have been better to not leak all that in a vicious tabloid war, and score a 50, hence why my point that we did as well as practically any other country could at assuaging his massive ego for so long.

 

[grecian]

I think KP is a massive **** but there are even more massive ****s in that England team and he was definitely bullied and scapegoated by those bigger ****s in the team. He was also a brilliant batsman and one of the best England have ever had.

But Root is knocking on the ATG door if not there already and therefore better just as a batsman across formats IMO.

I am glad we have got the view, of someone clearly in the dressing room of who was doing bullying from HB, we could of course take James Taylor's word for it, but what the **** does he know?

 

[Burgey]

One of them is the best Pommy batsman since Geoff Boycott. The other is Joe Root.

 

[TheJediBrah]

This take always baffles me. No you didnt kick KP out at the right time. You binned him and had a conga line of 25-30 averaging mediocre middle order bats replace him and lose you plenty of games. The English team wouldve been better with him even in decline ,absolutely no way anyone can deny it. He was also told to go and score runs in county cricket, and when he went and smashed a run a ball 250, england went yeah nah we arent selecting you. He was a **** but very poorly treated.

It's pure cope. KP was England's best batsman when he was finally axed for good, and he was still high quality for years after that. Not unusual that a hardcore fan of the team would refuse to believe that and concoct an excuse like "oh he was done anyway with a bad knee", similar to "the rest of the team wasn't a problem, it was just KP, no bullying culture nope". If the truth is unpalatable just make up an alternate.

 

[grecian]

It's pure cope. KP was England's best batsman when he was finally axed for good, and he was still high quality for years after that. Not unusual that a hardcore fan of the team would refuse to believe that and concoct an excuse like "oh he was done anyway with a bad knee", similar to "the rest of the team wasn't a problem, it was just KP, no bullying culture nope". If the truth is unpalatable just make up an alternate.

`Not surprising an hardcore fan of Kp would come up with this view, there that was an easy rebuttal, and why this entire argument has made English cricket as toxic as almost everything else out there, oh and I am very much part of that.

I have no idea if there was an unacceptable bullying culture in the Dressing Room, BTW. as I don't with any dressing room, but I'm not going to take KP's word leaked through a really shitty person to tabloid it up a bit. Again he seems to have come up against this bullying a lot through his life. poor me, as I think a thread once said....

 

[GIMH]

Root probably better at this point but its definitely close. Dont agree with @Flem274* that Root is some bastion of consistency either, he's had some bad troughs.



This take always baffles me. No you didnt kick KP out at the right time. You binned him and had a conga line of 25-30 averaging mediocre middle order bats replace him and lose you plenty of games. The English team wouldve been better with him even in decline ,absolutely no way anyone can deny it. He was also told to go and score runs in county cricket, and when he went and smashed a run a ball 250, england went yeah nah we arent selecting you. He was a **** but very poorly treated.

We went on to win the Ashes that summer. A united dressing room is obviously important. If you're averaging 55 then you can get away with being a pillock perhaps but KP's average was in decline so you reach a point where its no longer worth it.

If you can't trust the bloke you're batting with then it's a massive problem. At the time KP was initially axed, he probably was our best batsman and there was a short term hit to the team for sure. By the time he scored that double ton Root was already better than him, there were holes in the team for sure but it was a functioning team with emerging players and a captain who didn't want KP back. KP would have never got his place back after 2012 but for Cook I believe, so once he'd had enough then that was that. Its worth remembering how toxic the Piers Morgan stuff was in the 13-14 Ashes. On a tour from hell you've got this obnoxious prick calling the players pussies and what not and KP is chums with him. No, what Morgan writes isn't KP's fault but it's not hard to see why it would grate.

We will never know what would have happened had he come back. I didn't approve of his sacking at the time, but he just dug in and showed more of his true self as time went by. Tweeting a struggling Matt Prior in 2014 saying something like 'your time is up #JosButtler'. That sort of thing. That's not a bloke you put back in your team.

 

[honestbharani]

We went on to win the Ashes that summer. A united dressing room is obviously important. If you're averaging 55 then you can get away with being a pillock perhaps but KP's average was in decline so you reach a point where its no longer worth it.

If you can't trust the bloke you're batting with then it's a massive problem. At the time KP was initially axed, he probably was our best batsman and there was a short term hit to the team for sure. By the time he scored that double ton Root was already better than him, there were holes in the team for sure but it was a functioning team with emerging players and a captain who didn't want KP back. KP would have never got his place back after 2012 but for Cook I believe, so once he'd had enough then that was that. Its worth remembering how toxic the Piers Morgan stuff was in the 13-14 Ashes. On a tour from hell you've got this obnoxious prick calling the players pussies and what not and KP is chums with him. No, what Morgan writes isn't KP's fault but it's not hard to see why it would grate.

We will never know what would have happened had he come back. I didn't approve of his sacking at the time, but he just dug in and showed more of his true self as time went by. Tweeting a struggling Matt Prior in 2014 saying something like 'your time is up #JosButtler'. That sort of thing. That's not a bloke you put back in your team.

Wasn't Prior supposed to be equally bad?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Wasn't Prior supposed to be equally bad?

That's the point. Prior was supposedly one of the bullies and did not get along with KP, hence KP taking shots at him on twitter.

 

[GIMH]

Wasn't Prior supposed to be equally bad?

Not sure I've ever heard that tbh but he never slated players on social media whilst at the same time still professing to want to be their team mate.

Two wrongs don't make a right any which way but the supposed clique was I think Anderson/Broad/Swann/Prior. Swann was done before KP anyway and Prior didn't last much longer but how many England teams have Anderson and Broad fit into?

There's being perceived as a **** by the world around you and then there's being detested in your own dressing room. If everyone outside those walls thinks you're a knob but your team mates respect you, I would say it doesn't really matter and therein lies the difference.

 

[grecian]

Wasn't Prior supposed to be equally bad?

Don't you know HB, you definitely knew the bullying was going on, the only person suggesting Prior was just as bad, was I think KP through Penis Moron. The point you seem to be wanting to believe is from one persons perspective, when many others perspective seem to differ. Not remarking on the Taylor Link I showed you, seems no-one is on a certain side of this discussion, but maybe that's just because James Taylor is a not a well-known **** who has fallen out with dozens of people, so can be safely ignored.

yet as GIMP points out if you genuinely want back in the team, possibly best not to slate players in it.

 

[Bijed]

This take always baffles me. No you didnt kick KP out at the right time. You binned him and had a conga line of 25-30 averaging mediocre middle order bats replace him and lose you plenty of games. The English team wouldve been better with him even in decline ,absolutely no way anyone can deny it. He was also told to go and score runs in county cricket, and when he went and smashed a run a ball 250, england went yeah nah we arent selecting you. He was a **** but very poorly treated.

Tbf, our 3-5 immediately after KP was dropped was Ballance (who gunned it initially), Bell (who was past his best but would have been in the team anyway if KP had stayed) and Root (who started being good from literally the next match). So whilst Pietersen is definitely a better player than two of those three, in the short term the middle order probably was strengthened by dropping him, even if you could say it was more luck than judgement.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Tbf, our 3-5 immediately after KP was dropped was Ballance (who gunned it initially), Bell (who was past his best but would have been in the team anyway if KP had stayed) and Root (who started being good from literally the next match). So whilst Pietersen is definitely a better player than two of those three, in the short term the middle order probably was strengthened by dropping him, even if you could say it was more luck than judgement.

Nick Compton played some tests didnt he? I think England went and beat SA in SA around that time so they probably did do fine without KP tbf.

 

[Prince EWS]

Nick Compton played some tests didnt he? I think England went and beat SA in SA around that time so they probably did do fine without KP tbf.

Compton mostly opened. He had a crack at 3 in his second coming but I think KP was long gone by then, not to mention not exactly being known for his keenness to bat higher in the order in the first place.

 

[Jack1]

`Not surprising an hardcore fan of Kp would come up with this view, there that was an easy rebuttal, and why this entire argument has made English cricket as toxic as almost everything else out there, oh and I am very much part of that.

I have no idea if there was an unacceptable bullying culture in the Dressing Room, BTW. as I don't with any dressing room, but I'm not going to take KP's word leaked through a really ****ty person to tabloid it up a bit. Again he seems to have come up against this bullying a lot through his life. poor me, as I think a thread once said....

Plenty of jealous about KP. You’re one of them.

 

[grecian]

Plenty of jealous about KP. You’re one of them.

Yes You are Jealous gawd it really is like debating Justin Bieber fans at times....

Link NSFW.

 

[Burgey]

Wasn't Prior involved with Swann in creating the fake Twitter account purely to put **** on Pietersen?

 

[grecian]

No don't think Prior was ever even accused. It was created by Richard Bailey, not a cricketer, but someone who knew some.

 

[honestbharani]

Don't you know HB, you definitely knew the bullying was going on, the only person suggesting Prior was just as bad, was I think KP through Penis Moron. The point you seem to be wanting to believe is from one persons perspective, when many others perspective seem to differ. Not remarking on the Taylor Link I showed you, seems no-one is on a certain side of this discussion, but maybe that's just because James Taylor is a not a well-known **** who has fallen out with dozens of people, so can be safely ignored.

yet as GIMP points out if you genuinely want back in the team, possibly best not to slate players in it.

Dunno why you take it so personally? I am obviously basing my opinion based on their public personas and working out what may have likely happened. KP is rather liked here in India and it maybe that our media showed us only that side of the story in great detail while burying some other info. I dont claim to be completely knowledgeable but for whatever it is worth, and I understand it is not much, I believe what I said.

Chill out. Unless you are Matt Prior, in which case, please post more about David Warner.

 

[honestbharani]

Not sure I've ever heard that tbh but he never slated players on social media whilst at the same time still professing to want to be their team mate.

Two wrongs don't make a right any which way but the supposed clique was I think Anderson/Broad/Swann/Prior. Swann was done before KP anyway and Prior didn't last much longer but how many England teams have Anderson and Broad fit into?

There's being perceived as a **** by the world around you and then there's being detested in your own dressing room. If everyone outside those walls thinks you're a knob but your team mates respect you, I would say it doesn't really matter and therein lies the difference.

I agree with most of your points but as far as I can tell, the main reason for the issues were KP's IPL deals and many of the rest of the players not getting that at that time. Its perfectly possible for people who are rather easy to get along with otherwise who can do weird things when there is envy involved. There are a few players who have said they never had a problem getting along with KP either from that timeframe. Morgan, Bell etc. come to mind.

I have no doubt that KP had a massive ego and may have been a tough guy to be around especially if he does not think much of you. But I have seen enough cases where you see perfectly normal people either quietly or directly back the soft bullying cultures that we see often in workplaces. And fragile egos like KP's can be hurt very easily as well. Its not about rights or wrongs here when I am that distant and am only a casual fan of the England cricket team but in my head, that story seems far more plausible than the rest.

Of course, everything you have said about how KP handled the thing is true, and I kind of understand his firing, IF they had stuck to it and not come crawling back when a series was to be played in India,. But inspite of all his stupidity, I still believe what I wrote earlier in terms of causality, that is all.