let’s remember some guys

[honestbharani]

If you don't mind, Steve, I'm subtly trying to provide excuses as to why I never made it as a great leg spinner.

Are you blond?

 

[cnerd123]

One 'guy' who seems to be remembered as mediocrity in India is Mohammad Kaif. Was always in and around the side without being a fixture from 2001-06 and discarded for good after that (TBF he never stood a chance of getting back in during the Dhoni era, there was way too much quality).

But during 2002-03 he (along with Yuvraj) was a genuine tonic as far as the one-day side was concerned - super fit, great fielder, excellent runner between the wickets, able to accelerate the score when the situation demanded, capable of batting anywhere from 3 to 7. He and Yuvraj did a fair bit to give Indian ODI cricket a 21st century makeover.

Also had a solid Test career despite never being given a proper run. Really rated Kaif, felt he was underrated by fans and selectors alike.

 

[Dan]

Moeen is a weird one because he was somehow successful against India, who are supposed to be good players of spin but woeful against Australia who are traditionally very bad players of spin.

So I just found this article which is an interesting read on Moeen that unpacks how he's bowled differently at home and away. I think it's missed taking into account bowling workloads (Moeen bowls 14 overs per innings at home, 20 per innings away), but is otherwise pretty good.

To me he's kind of a half-and-half off-spinner. He's got one foot in the rip-them-sideways big sidespinner camp, with the other foot in the beat-them-in-the-air overspinner camp (which it sounds like he developed more after his Test career started). That's a pretty good approach to take to English conditions - there's not the sufficient grip to be a natural variation = wickets bowler (either of the early-Jadeja or Krejza varieties), nor is there the bounce to be a Lyon-esque overspin into the splice bowler.

The conditions aren't helpful enough to weaponise the extra sidespin-y-ness against international-level batsmen in any meaningful sense, so the wicket-taking threat mostly comes from the the overspin element of his home bowling. Revs leading to no sidespin doesn't bother Australian batsmen because they practice against Jon Holland in Brisbane, and English decks don't allow for Lyon-esque bounce. Revs leading to no sidespin probably does bother India a little bit because they practice against Ashwin in Mohali, and the discount Lyon levels of bounce is still more than they're used to so is more likely to catch them off guard when Moeen gets that element of his bowling right.

For more Dan-talks-rubbish-about-offspin, I've done the digging through the archives for you: https://mindthewindows.com/2015/11/19/off-spin-in-australia-a-thankless-task/

 

[Smudge]

Are you blond?

Look, if your next question is "n00dz?", I'm afraid I'll have to direct you to my Onlyfans page.

 

[honestbharani]

Look, if your next question is "n00dz?", I'm afraid I'll have to direct you to my Onlyfans page.

lol, I just thought you can't be considered a leggie with prospects unless you were blond, either side of the Tasman.

 

[andruid]

11 pages into the thread I want to ask, do players who were doing okay but got pushed out by a genius/prodigy type count as 'guys'? An example is whoever got dropped because 'Don Bradman'

 

[Pothas]

I don't think that really happens very often.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

In 1982 Geoff Cook made half centuries in consecutive Tests opening the batting but was then left out because the selectors wanted Gatting in the side and bunged Derek Randall up to open with Chris Tavare. It probably didn't cost him an illustrious Test career, but he was probably scratching his head a bit.

 

[Moss]

I know the Aussie selectors only settled on Nathan Lyon as first choice spinner in 2011 after trying out the likes of Doherty and Beer in the Ashes the previous season, but Nathan Hauritz had held the gig for at least 2 years I think prior to that, did a decent job and was never recalled which must have been pretty galling for the guy.

A far more obscure example would be Mark Haslam, an SLA who played a few internationals for NZ, anointed as first choice spinner during the 1996/97 season and then overlooked in favour of an18 year old who had played all of 2(?) first class games named Daniel Vettori.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Trent Copeland.

He is not express, but his height, accuracy and ability to deceptively move the ball both ways make him a tough bowler to face. I've always enjoyed watching him bowl and I don't know why he wasn't given more opportunities. He has been extremely consistent in the FC games and I guess he hasn't retired yet. Obv, he is 34 now and can't be picked, but he should have got more opportunities to prove himself. I think generally bowlers who are genuinely quick get more chances because people get too excited by pace(nothing wrong with that) and expect them to deliver, but there are other ways to be effective as a bowler.

He was discarded after just 3 tests, all of them in Sri Lanka.

Here's a video of him:

 

[quincywagstaff]

Great thread.

My vote goes to James Hopes. Largely anonymous all-rounder who was no better than handy who somehow managed to play 84 ODIs.

That he managed to play so many without ever playing in a World Cup was interesting; I'd be surprised if there's an Oz player who played so many ODIs without a WC appearance.

My guess is the selectors thought he was OK enough to do a job in bilateral/tri-series between WCs but never thought he could deliver in the big tournament.

My specific memory of him is one of the least nondescript and forgettable international matches. A 2009/10 dead rubber between Australia & West Indies at the MCG that had a tiny crowd and little interest except for how much Oz would win by.

Except this was James Hopes' day. Against the weak Windies attack he smacked them everywhere to score 57 off just 26 deliveries. This plus a wicket guaranteed him something he hadn't achieved in his previous 71 matches, the Man Of The Match award!

 

[cnerd123]

Great thread.

My vote goes to James Hopes. Largely anonymous all-rounder who was no better than handy who somehow managed to play 84 ODIs.

That he managed to play so many without ever playing in a World Cup was interesting; I'd be surprised if there's an Oz player who played so many ODIs without a WC appearance.

My guess is the selectors thought he was OK enough to do a job in bilateral/tri-series between WCs but never thought he could deliver in the big tournament.

My specific memory of him is one of the least nondescript and forgettable international matches. A 2009/10 dead rubber between Australia & West Indies at the MCG that had a tiny crowd and little interest except for how much Oz would win by.

Except this was James Hopes' day. Against the weak Windies attack he smacked them everywhere to score 57 off just 26 deliveries. This plus a wicket guaranteed him something he hadn't achieved in his previous 71 matches, the Man Of The Match award!

Yea great call. Was a big James Hopes fan back in the day. His career was tragic for exactly the reason you said - he was a dependable allrounder who consistently delivered in JAMODIs, only to be dropped when Aus went in full strength for a World Cup.

Copeland another good call. Stuart Clark a similar bowler.

 

[karan_fromthestands]

Great thread.

My vote goes to James Hopes. Largely anonymous all-rounder who was no better than handy who somehow managed to play 84 ODIs.

That he managed to play so many without ever playing in a World Cup was interesting; I'd be surprised if there's an Oz player who played so many ODIs without a WC appearance.

My guess is the selectors thought he was OK enough to do a job in bilateral/tri-series between WCs but never thought he could deliver in the big tournament.

My specific memory of him is one of the least nondescript and forgettable international matches. A 2009/10 dead rubber between Australia & West Indies at the MCG that had a tiny crowd and little interest except for how much Oz would win by.

Except this was James Hopes' day. Against the weak Windies attack he smacked them everywhere to score 57 off just 26 deliveries. This plus a wicket guaranteed him something he hadn't achieved in his previous 71 matches, the Man Of The Match award!

Hopes was a decent-allrounder and should have played a WC IMO. I mean his bowling was perfect for a 5th bowler, he was tidy and economical, and didn't try anything fancy, plus could bowl with the new ball or in the death if one of the main bowlers is having a bad day. He also had this knack of playing these little cameos and adding valuable runs to the scoreboard.

 

[quincywagstaff]

Praveen Kumar.

Notable for being (arguably) the last genuine medium pacer (don't think I ever saw him ever get near 80mph, and was generally around 71-74mph) to play tests, having a six match test career that lasted less than 2 months in total, looking a good decade older than he was supposed to be (think he was nominally 24 when India toured up here in 2011, but realistically looked closer to 40), hooping it both ways absolutely miles and getting onto the honours board at Lords with his only 5-for.

Remember him from the 07/08 ODI tri-series finals series in Oz between Australia and India; bowled some quality swing bowling and was key as anyone to India winning those finals.

 

[quincywagstaff]

michael beer, who scored a lone test for australia in the grim warne-to-lyon years where the spin cycle went on and on, and didn't do much in there. in fairness i believe he got that test in perth which, while it was his home ground, was perth, and not exactly a paradise for the spinners. however...

he went on to reinvent himself as a legitimate pioneer in bbl cricket, and was the first spinner here to bowl in the early overs, doing so well before it took hold as a legitimate tactic used by every team. bowling induckers and outswingers and 95-100km, beer along with jason behrendorff were the key cogs in the scorchers team that sucked the life out of bbl cricket by defending 137 week in and week out at #TheFurnace, which is what they were calling the waca at the time ("so give me five bees for a quarter, you'd say at the time").

now

if you were a bbl watcher between 2012 and 2015 and you don't go for the scorchers, chances are you've seen your team derailed in a low chase against perth because michael beer opened the bowling and took 1/21 (4).

he went on to play for the stars after his scorchers years, long after the band broke up at perth, but that was less auspicious. nonetheless he went from someone who's the answer to a cricket trivia question to a genuine pioneer of tactics in domestic and arguably international t20 cricket, all the while doing so with a funny and memorable name.

My memory of his SCG Test debut was when he had Cook out from a slog shot, only to be overturned because he'd bowled a no-ball.

Calling no-balls via TV after a dismissal was very new back then and recall Mark Taylor cracking the says about it.

 

[Spikey]

Great thread.

My vote goes to James Hopes. Largely anonymous all-rounder who was no better than handy who somehow managed to play 84 ODIs.

That he managed to play so many without ever playing in a World Cup was interesting; I'd be surprised if there's an Oz player who played so many ODIs without a WC appearance.

My guess is the selectors thought he was OK enough to do a job in bilateral/tri-series between WCs but never thought he could deliver in the big tournament.

My specific memory of him is one of the least nondescript and forgettable international matches. A 2009/10 dead rubber between Australia & West Indies at the MCG that had a tiny crowd and little interest except for how much Oz would win by.

Except this was James Hopes' day. Against the weak Windies attack he smacked them everywhere to score 57 off just 26 deliveries. This plus a wicket guaranteed him something he hadn't achieved in his previous 71 matches, the Man Of The Match award!

there's a few players who played a lot of games between WC's in the recent era. Just from this list: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...al1=span;team=2;template=results;type=bowling

Hauritz, Wade & McKay didn't play in WCs iirc. I'm writing a post re Hauritz right now, he was picked in 2011 but got hurt and he was Warne's replacement in 2003, but of course wasn't needed as Hogg was there. Wade lost his spot two times just prior to WC's and McKay was McKay

 

[Spikey]

My memory of his SCG Test debut was when he had Cook out from a slog shot, only to be overturned because he'd bowled a no-ball.

Calling no-balls via TV after a dismissal was very new back then and recall Mark Taylor cracking the says about it.

mark taylor hates it. "ruins the moment" he'd always say

 

[cnerd123]

11 pages into the thread I want to ask, do players who were doing okay but got pushed out by a genius/prodigy type count as 'guys'? An example is whoever got dropped because 'Don Bradman'

who got dropped for Bradman?

 

[Kraken]

Yea great call. Was a big James Hopes fan back in the day. His career was tragic for exactly the reason you said - he was a dependable allrounder who consistently delivered in JAMODIs, only to be dropped when Aus went in full strength for a World Cup.

Copeland another good call. Stuart Clark a similar bowler.

an absolute travesty both of these fine New South Welshmen didn't play more test cricket, especially clark. what a man

 

[Spikey]

one thing about Hopes is that he got a random 5 game spell where he got to open the batting.

didn't do much.