Rank the 10,000 club

[Burgey]

It would have been like Australia beating Tamil Nadu in 2004 and being feted as a great pioneering side

 

[h_hurricane]

It would have been like Australia beating Tamil Nadu in 2004 and being feted as a great pioneering side

It was something similar to that though. Tendulkar was injured for 2 matches. A green Nagpur pitch was served like all good hosts do. The final day was rained off in Chennai when India had their noses ahead. Ultimately, Aussies won, and it is rightly rated as a great victory.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It doesn't matter. You can only play what you are up against. First series victory creates reputations. Would have been massive achievement at that time. Similar to the one in 2018-19.

The one where the 2 best opposition players were banned? Not exactly selling it by comparing it to 2018-19.

It was something similar to that though. Tendulkar was injured for 2 matches. A green Nagpur pitch was served like all good hosts do. The final day was rained off in Chennai when India had their noses ahead. Ultimately, Aussies won, and it is rightly rated as a great victory.

wow a lot of revisionism here. You fail to mention that Ponting was also out for 3 matches, and the 1 Test India won was on a rank dustbowl. Just to cancel out your first 2 complaints. You can't just look at 1 team's limitations and come to a conclusion based on that.

 

[h_hurricane]

The one where the 2 best opposition players were banned? Not exactly selling it by comparing it to 2018-19.

Lol, I am just repeating the same point here. That is not India's concern. I was just telling Burgey that caveats shouldn't matter whether Tendulkar was absent in 2004 or Smith in 2018-19.

wow a lot of revisionism here. You fail to mention that Ponting was also out for 3 matches, and the 1 Test India won was on a rank dustbowl. Just to cancel out your first 2 complaints. You can't just look at 1 team's limitations and come to a conclusion based on that.

Now that you brought it, Ponting being out for the 3 matches actually helped Australia win the series .

 

[honestbharani]

The one where the 2 best opposition players were banned? Not exactly selling it by comparing it to 2018-19.



wow a lot of revisionism here. You fail to mention that Ponting was also out for 3 matches, and the 1 Test India won was on a rank dustbowl. Just to cancel out your first 2 complaints. You can't just look at 1 team's limitations and come to a conclusion based on that.

Yeah, that was the biggest blow for India that series... And none of what hurricane mentioned there is revisionism. Just facts, which you can see from discussions about that series right here in CW. His point seems to be, and I agree with it, that once you get the first series win, even if it is against a poor side comparatively, it does get the monkey off the back and a certain amount of pressure to perform goes away the next time you tour there. I would say same happened with the 2006 series in RSA which we really should have won or at least drawn.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lol, I am just repeating the same point here. That is not India's concern.

Of course not, you can only play who you're up against. Doesn't change that it wasn't the same as beating a proper side though.

Now that you brought it, Ponting being out for the 3 matches actually helped Australia win the series .

Predicted this response haha

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah, that was the biggest blow for India that series... And none of what hurricane mentioned there is revisionism. Just facts, which you can see from discussions about that series right here in CW. His point seems to be, and I agree with it, that once you get the first series win, even if it is against a poor side comparatively, it does get the monkey off the back and a certain amount of pressure to perform goes away the next time you tour there. I would say same happened with the 2006 series in RSA which we really should have won or at least drawn.

Oh yes they are definitely facts, but the fact that he brought those factors up as if it meant that Australia were lucky to win the series shows tremendous bias as it completely ignores the factors that went the other way. Using this sort of logic, and lack of self-awareness, you can trick yourself into believing you're always unlucky. This is a good lesson for life in general.

 

[GIMH]

One batsman helped another is a dumb argument. When it comes to test batting each man is on his own and has a rather simple job: don't get out and score runs. What other guy is doing doesn't make much difference.

Bowling together though is a thing because bowlers can take breathers if they have a good bowling team. Batting in ODIs together is also a thing because if your partner scores at brisk pace you don't feel pressure of scoring rates.

I don't see any such thing happening with test batting.

I think this is silly. I've not read the whole debate but partnerships are central to the game. Saying you're on your own missing the whole point of Test Cricket for me.

 

[honestbharani]

Oh yes they are definitely facts, but the fact that he brought those factors up as if it meant that Australia were lucky to win the series shows tremendous bias as it completely ignores the factors that went the other way. Using this sort of logic, and lack of self-awareness, you can trick yourself into believing you're always unlucky. This is a good lesson for life in general.

But this is not what the context of the post was. The context was that the strength of the opposition and the circumstances do not matter so much when you are doing something you have never done before. Coz it eases the pressure on the next generation of players. Of course, even if we had won in 2008 you guys would have wiped the floor with us in 2011-12 juz like how we wiped the floor with you guys in 2008 even though you won in 2004. But the ability to play without the pressure of history weighing you down is something you cannot overlook.

 

[h_hurricane]

Oh yes they are definitely facts, but the fact that he brought those factors up as if it meant that Australia were lucky to win the series shows tremendous bias as it completely ignores the factors that went the other way. Using this sort of logic, and lack of self-awareness, you can trick yourself into believing you're always unlucky. This is a good lesson for life in general.

Which factor went the other way for Australia though ? Absence of Ponting was an advantage, so too Nagpur pitch and Chennai rain. I didn't discredit the victory, and only brought it up when caveats were being thrown in another example.

About the dust bowl though, if you can't chase 100 something, then well... May be if Ponting was injured for that match as well, they would have won.

 

[_00_deathscar]

The other factor is the drop in pitches that have removed all life from the MCG and SCG in particular. India got lucky to avoid both McGrath and Warne in the 03 series but they have consistently had super flat decks rolled out for them since the turn of the century.

India being lucky to avoid Warne is certainly a new hot take...

 

[h_hurricane]

The real revisionism is that India were lucky to avoid Warne or Ponting. Loved the duo especially when they played in the sub continent.

Not really surprised that Stephen or TJB brought it up though.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't have too many strong opinions on this tired topic, but India being lucky to not have to face Warne/Ponting is questionable to say the least. Those two weren't just sub par or mediocre against India (only in India for Ponting) , they were historically woeful. They were often Australia's worst performers in those series.

India were lucky to dodge Mcgrath in 03 yes. Warne/Ponting more likely escaped another bad series which would've harmed their reputations further.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Which factor went the other way for Australia though ? Absence of Ponting was an advantage, so too Nagpur pitch and Chennai rain. I didn't discredit the victory, and only brought it up when caveats were being thrown in another example.

About the dust bowl though, if you can't chase 100 something, then well... May be if Ponting was injured for that match as well, they would have won.

Wait you're serious about that? thought you were joking. No, I don't think the absence of 2004 Ponting, who had just bossed Sri Lanka a few months ago, was not an advantage for Australia, regardless of how poorly he had done in India in previous series when he was a much different player than in his peak.

Not all caveats are equal. I haven't a clue about what happened in 1986, but nothing in 2004 comes close to the advantage India got in 2018-19 by having Aus' 2 best batsmen by a country mile out of the side.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I don't have too many strong opinions on this tired topic, but India being lucky to not have to face Warne/Ponting is questionable to say the least. Those two weren't just sub par or mediocre against India (only in India for Ponting) , they were historically woeful. They were often Australia's worst performers in those series.

Really need to go into Ponting's tours of India/career break-up again? I literally did it yesterday. He played 1 Test in India during his peak (post 2001 Ashes to 2007, where he averaged 70). Either side of that peak, where he played his other 13 Tests in India he averaged 35 and was no where near the same player.

Ponting's record in India being as bad as it is has as much to do with cirucmstance and scheduling than anything. Not taking away that he was below par even for where he was at during those tours, he definitely struggled more in India than anywhere else, but using that to extrapolate how he would have been in 2004 is pure ignorance.

 

[ankitj]

I think this is silly. I've not read the whole debate but partnerships are central to the game. Saying you're on your own missing the whole point of Test Cricket for me.

I was thinking aloud. I'm open to discussion on this. What are the mechanics of how batting together in tests help you? I don't think having a better partner suddenly makes you a better player of out swing bowling for instance, nor does it make the bowlers poorer at bowling it. May be it's that when a good partnership is going on the fielding team is not attacking anymore. That may be it.

I generally and consistently don't take what appears "obvious" on face value. For example I have always held that world cup finals are on average no harder to perform in than a regular ODI against similar quality of opposition. This is another one of those. I would want to be sure of exact mechanics of how batting becomes easier with good batting partners.

 

[ankitj]

Really need to go into Ponting's tours of India/career break-up again? I literally did it yesterday. He played 1 Test in India during his peak (post 2001 Ashes to 2007, where he averaged 70). Either side of that peak, where he played his other 13 Tests in India he averaged 35 and was no where near the same player.

Ponting's record in India being as bad as it is has as much to do with cirucmstance and scheduling than anything. Not taking away that he was below par even for where he was at during those tours, he definitely struggled more in India than anywhere else, but using that to extrapolate how he would have been in 2004 is pure ignorance.

All you are doing this entire thread is excuses. Why Australia lost 2018 series, why Ponting has poor record in India. And your mate Stephen elsewhere is serving excuses for why Warne's average in West Indies was poor and soon he will get to Warne in India excuses too.

#AussieExcuses

 

[TheJediBrah]

All you are doing this entire thread is excuses. Why Australia lost 2018 series, why Ponting has poor record in India. And your mate Stephen elsewhere is serving excuses for why Warne's average in West Indies was poor and soon he will get to Warne in India excuses too.

#AussieExcuses

Hey, I'm just calling out dumb **** when I see it. Maybe they do come across as making excuses but can you honestly say that anything I've said is wrong?

You really think Australia would have lost the 2018 series if Smith and Warner were there? You really think predicting Ponting's performance in 2004 based on his other tours when he was half the player is sensible?

also tbf I didn't come out and start throwing out these excuses from no-where, it was in response to others bringing up the reverse

 

[ankitj]

I admire your graciousness TJB

 

[TheJediBrah]

I admire your graciousness TJB

never heard that one before