Burgey
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And that's with the bat, before bowling is even taken into account
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
The Australian first XI is so strong. I think if a world existed where all ATGs played each other for the 2 year test championship, it will be clearly,
Tier 1: Australia
Tier 4: West Indies
Tier 6: Other countries' ATG teams
ataraxia
International Coach
Australia
West Indies
England
South Africa
India
Pakistan
SL/NZ
Zimbabwe
Ban/Afg
Ireland
IMO the order for ATG XIs. But yes, Aus and to a lesser extent WI are far ahead of the others in both departments (ofc WI spin is not good but is still okay and often unneeded).
West Indies
England
South Africa
India
Pakistan
SL/NZ
Zimbabwe
Ban/Afg
Ireland
IMO the order for ATG XIs. But yes, Aus and to a lesser extent WI are far ahead of the others in both departments (ofc WI spin is not good but is still okay and often unneeded).
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
India is 5th only due to the pacers. Hoping that Bumrah and Shami continue their success or take it even one more level higher for India to get to 3rd here.
ataraxia
International Coach
Perhaps. Trueman and Barnes are both very good though, as are the English openers (especially if you have all three, better IMO (and Grace if you want to go there) and spinning options. Roughly equal for me, maybe leaning towards SA.
Slifer
International Captain
With all due respect, Australia does probably have best atg team but it's not daylight or anything between theirs and other XIs.
Slifer
International Captain
Even with Bumrah or whoever else, India's atg xi is not better than their next door neighbors
Assumed Indian xi
Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Kohli*
Laxman
Dhoni+
Dev
Ashwin
Srinath
Shami
Bumrah simply hasn't played anywhere enough tests to be considered.
Pakistan
Saeed
Hanif
Inzi
Javed
Younis
Yousuf
Sarfraz+
Imran*
Wasim
Saqlain
Waqar
India's batting is better but Pakistan's bowling is head and shoulders above India's and probably on par with any other world atg attack.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Yes, it is daylight. Bradman is a level above. And they have Bradman, Smith, Gilchrist, Warne and Mcgrath all potentially making it to the overall ATG team while other countries have only 1 or 2 making it.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Man to man, India's 1 to 7 are stronger than Pakistan's. Saqlain and Ashwin/Jadeja are neck and neck. Ash/Jaddu are probably better than Saqlain by the amount Imran is better than Dev.
Like I said before, it is just about the pacers. I was talking about the time they retire, potentially Bumrah and Shami could be Wasim and Waqar if they can take their game up one more level, even though this contention looks outrageous at this point.
ataraxia
International Coach
I think Hazare/Mankad and Kumble instead of Laxman and a pacer is a more normal and better XI for India (also Sarfaraz in there and Kohli captaining, really?), but yes, I did forget Pakistan's immense bowling strength (IMO Waqar, Wasim, Imran is probably the best pace attack at a given time produced by a country, and has batting capability as well). But on the other side of the equation, Pakistan have a top 7 which SL could challenge and IMO Pakistan will be hit-and-miss. About the same as India on reflection.
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
Historically, Pakistan has been the better touring side in England and NZ whereas India fares better in Australia and WI. In Asia, India would just about perform better.
Pakistan vs India ATG XIs would be really close in quality imo. 20 years back, it would have been a non contest.India have added a few ATGs and a few ATVGs in this period. Pakistan has added only Younis Khan and Inzi.
Interestingly, since Pakistan's debut in 1952, they have a win loss ratio of 1.06 (136 wins vs 128 losses) whereas India has 1.02 (153 wins vs 150 losses). India has a better win loss ratio since 1971 when the first ATGs (Gavaskar and Imran) debuted.
It is a lot closer than most think.
Pakistan vs India ATG XIs would be really close in quality imo. 20 years back, it would have been a non contest.India have added a few ATGs and a few ATVGs in this period. Pakistan has added only Younis Khan and Inzi.
Interestingly, since Pakistan's debut in 1952, they have a win loss ratio of 1.06 (136 wins vs 128 losses) whereas India has 1.02 (153 wins vs 150 losses). India has a better win loss ratio since 1971 when the first ATGs (Gavaskar and Imran) debuted.
It is a lot closer than most think.
Slifer
International Captain
Using England as an example they could potentially have Sutcliffe, hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Knott, Ames, Trueman, Barnes in a world xi
Wi could have Lara, viv, sobers, marshall, ambrose
South Africa Donald, steyn, kallis, pollock G,
Etc.
The point is, aside from Bradman no other Australian is a sho in for an all time world xi. Depending on what you value Gilchrist has knott, ames etc as competition, McGrath well any of about a dozen other atg pacemen, ditto smith, and warne obviously has murali . Yeah Australia are the best but it's not daylight or anything. Even in his time Bradmans Australian teams were never daylight above the England teams of his time.
Slifer
International Captain
h_hurricane
International Vice-Captain
This is mostly the case. Wierdly, even with Imran, Akram and Waqar at their peak, Pakistan had a pretty poor record in Australia. India had fared much better there. Also performed better in WI.
I am not saying Indian ATG > Pakistan ATG. It could be close with Pakistan just about ahead. It depends on where they play.
CricAddict
Cricketer Of The Year
Not really.
India's batting >>Pakistan batting
Pakistan's bowling > India's
will be the right one. Since India's spinners are better than the neighbours'.
ataraxia
International Coach
In my (normal) XI there are three Australians (I don't think Smith's done enough, equivalent to Headley IMO) and three West Indians.
Hobbs
Grace* - 6
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers - 5
Gilchrist +
Imran - 2
Hadlee - 1
Marshall - 3
Warne - 4
Fairly even in that regard, especially in the bowling. Unusual variation:
Hobbs
Grace* - 7
Sobers - 5
Bradman
Hammond - 6
Richards
Gilchrist +
Procter - 3
Imran - 2
Hadlee - 1
Warne - 4
Can put on huge scores. Bowls deep and bats deep. Bradman often got out early, so Sobers will protect him in case of an early wicket. The latter got 365* in that position. Procter's stats are similar to Frank Woolley's, only the former is a bowling all-rounder who averaged over 40 with the bat in hand. Flexible batting lineup and very long. Hammond I could put in my normal XI, the unusual part of this is really Procter (and Hadlee at 10).
I've gone off-track here but both these XIs show that there isn't much daylight measured in this manner. The daylight comes from good openers, and terrific everyone else, at 2nd-4th world XI level.
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OverratedSanity
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Gavaskar-Sehwag-Dravid-Tendulkar-Kohli vs Hanif-Anwar-inzi-Younis-miandad. India's is clearly better but I wouldn't say the gap is as wide as the one between the two pace attacks.