The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[bagapath]

Yeah. Speaking of Imran and Hadlee purely as opening bowlers. Can't place them anywhere below, or above, Steyn Ambrose Marshall Lillee McGrath Trueman. They're the best of the best. In my books they are a notch above Donald Akram Pollock Lindwall Waqar Holding Garner Roberts Davidson. Can't think of anyone definitely superior to Imran and Hadlee in fast bowling. They are top contenders for any all time XI"s opening bowling spots even if they averaged 1 with the bat.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lol. If averages are a perfectly accurate indicator of bowling ability and 1 run in bowling average is massively impactful, then Joel Garner ****s all over Glenn McGrath.

P.S. I don't actually think this, just showing what a ridiculous premise it is.

You're completely missing the context. Of course career bowling averages are highly variable with a multitude of influential factors and no one will claim that they are perfectly accurate indicator of anything.

I thought it would have been clear that the analysis of the practical differences in bowling averages ~1.5 runs apart is a hypothetical comparison where all other factors are controlled for, otherwise it would have been completely pointless as an exercise

 

[the big bambino]

Sutcliffe was hardly the most elegant or exciting player in history. A steady accumulator with great patience and a watertight defence, he made copious use of an angled bat and seldom played in the region between point and mid-on — the strokes of grace and grandeur that live long in the memory and elevate cricket to visual delight. He played in possibly the highest scoring era ever with very few all time great fast bowlers, made extensive use of his pads at a time when the ball had to pitch in line with the stumps in order for an LBW to be given, and never made any gargantuan scores in Tests.

Hobbs proved himself pre war (a much tougher era for batsmen), was a complete batsman who played all the classical shots, and had a fifth gear which he was able to use to take quality attacks apart.

Hutton was almost as prolific as Sutcliffe in a lower scoring post war era, faced a generally much higher standard of fast bowling and was the very embodiment of the technically correct, classical batsman. Unlike Sutcliffe, he also played under the modern LBW rule in which a batsmen can be given out to balls pitching outside the off stump.

The batting averages by decade from the 20s to the the present are much in the same range. In fact Hutton played in a comparatively high scoring era in the 40s. The lbw law is one of the few points in this post that support the argument made.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah. Speaking of Imran and Hadlee purely as opening bowlers. Can't place them anywhere below, or above, Steyn Ambrose Marshall Lillee McGrath Trueman. They're the best of the best. In my books they are a notch above Donald Akram Pollock Lindwall Waqar Holding Garner Roberts Davidson. Can't think of anyone definitely superior to Imran and Hadlee in fast bowling. They are top contenders for any all time XI"s opening bowling spots even if they averaged 1 with the bat.

Well we all have differing opinions. For me.

Marshall
McGrath
Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan

Ambrose
Hadlee

Lillee
Truman
O'Reilly


The rest just listed in order of country

Lindwall
Davidson
Akram
Waqar
Imran
Garner
Holding
Donald
Laker
Barnes

Top 20. All ATG, all just not as great. All the ones in the final tier just have little holes in the record that the other don't. And again just my opinion.

 

[bagapath]

No one said they weren't awesome.

But were they the best?

Probably. Cant say anyone is definitely better than them

 

[bagapath]

It is possible to make a winning case for Hadlee being the greatest bowler of all time. No one not Barnes, not Murali, not Marshall can be automatically deemed to be better than him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

It is possible to make a winning case for Hadlee being the greatest bowler of all time. No one not Barnes, not Murali, not Marshall can be automatically deemed to be better than him.

I mean it's possible to make a case for any of those guys + probably half a dozen more to be the greatest bowler of all time, whether or not it's a "winning" case is entirely subjective

I would have thought there were a few clearly better than him but if you weight playing in a weak side particularly heavily then I could see you consider him among the best, or even the best

 

[bagapath]

I mean it's possible to make a case for any of those guys + probably half a dozen more to be the greatest bowler of all time, whether or not it's a "winning" case is entirely subjective

I would have thought there were a few clearly better than him but if you weight playing in a weak side particularly heavily then I could see you consider him among the best, or even the best

Yeah, that would be probably the way I would argue.

And take the Asian wickets angle for Imran and add his under 30 record against everyone, everywhere which no one else boasts of...

Then you add the batting skills. And you wonder why Imran and Hadlee should not be in every dream team together... my angle, though. I can understand why others might feel differently.
can make similar arguments for other great bowlers like McGrath and Marshall. It is so tough to split these guys on bowling stats alone.

 

[MrPrez]

This is the perennial problem with ATG teams - who are they playing against?

Against a hypothetical equal team, you'd almost have to pick Hadlee at 8 because you're likely to need your 8 to bat a lot of the time - in which case the benefit Hadlee would provide is inarguable, for a minimal drop-off.

Against a "normal" team, however, you'd have to expect your top 7 to do enough batting that your 8-11 is barely needed. In which case you simply pick your four best bowlers (of which I think Hadlee is certainly in the discussion, anyway).

Hadlee struggles to make my ATG team in the first instance for the most pedantic of reasons - Hadlee would be my third bowler alongside McGrath and Marshall, but he's too similar to McGrath for my liking, as I'd like the strike bowling ability of a Steyn or whomever else is in that discussion.

 

[bagapath]

This is the perennial problem with ATG teams - who are they playing against?

Against a hypothetical equal team, you'd almost have to pick Hadlee at 8 because you're likely to need your 8 to bat a lot of the time - in which case the benefit Hadlee would provide is inarguable, for a minimal drop-off.

Against a "normal" team, however, you'd have to expect your top 7 to do enough batting that your 8-11 is barely needed. In which case you simply pick your four best bowlers (of which I think Hadlee is certainly in the discussion, anyway).

Hadlee struggles to make my ATG team in the first instance for the most pedantic of reasons - Hadlee would be my third bowler alongside McGrath and Marshall, but he's too similar to McGrath for my liking, as I'd like the strike bowling ability of a Steyn or whomever else is in that discussion.

Understandable. It is your team and your logic is not faulty.

But I think I wont suffer even an iota taking Imran and Hadlee as my opening bowlers, leaving aside their batting completely. In my books they will be as effective as Marshall and McGrath or Trueman and Ambrose. This is my opinion. And I don't know if any argument from either of us will be able to unearth any new fact on the abilities of all these awesome guys,

 

[kyear2]

This is the perennial problem with ATG teams - who are they playing against?

Against a hypothetical equal team, you'd almost have to pick Hadlee at 8 because you're likely to need your 8 to bat a lot of the time - in which case the benefit Hadlee would provide is inarguable, for a minimal drop-off.

Against a "normal" team, however, you'd have to expect your top 7 to do enough batting that your 8-11 is barely needed. In which case you simply pick your four best bowlers (of which I think Hadlee is certainly in the discussion, anyway).

Hadlee struggles to make my ATG team in the first instance for the most pedantic of reasons - Hadlee would be my third bowler alongside McGrath and Marshall, but he's too similar to McGrath for my liking, as I'd like the strike bowling ability of a Steyn or whomever else is in that discussion.

More or less agree with everything here. I do have Steyn ahead of him, but just barely. And have him on par with Sir Curtly so factoring in his batting, then he jumps ahead of Ambrose, no problem. So behind my top 3 he is next in line, therefore against a hypothetical very good / equal team where every little advantage counts I would have to consider him over one of the others. Because of his similarity of McGrath and because Glenn is the weakest batting link, it would have to be him. Though the though of McGrath bowling with Marshall, McGrath having bowled in tougher more modern conditions, and the fact he is my clear no. 2, still makes it a tough decision for me to make.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah, that would be probably the way I would argue.

And take the Asian wickets angle for Imran and add his under 30 record against everyone, everywhere which no one else boasts of...

Then you add the batting skills. And you wonder why Imran and Hadlee should not be in every dream team together... my angle, though. I can understand why others might feel differently.
can make similar arguments for other great bowlers like McGrath and Marshall. It is so tough to split these guys on bowling stats alone.

1.
Imran didn't bowl well on Asian wickets, he bowled well in Pakistan and Sri Lanka were minnows at the time. He averaged 28 in India.

2.
An average of under 30 everywhere isn't good. He didn't average under 24 anywhere but Pakistan where he averaged 19.

So if the team is playing a game in Pakistan, yes he would be 1st choice. Other no, he isn't top 10. Even Smali admits Hadlee sis better, though he states it's by a relatively small margin.

Let's look at Imran's away record compared to the top 2 of his era.

Imran
Vs Aus 28.51 @ 62 s/r
Vs Eng 24.63 @ 62 s/r
Vs Ind 28 @ 61 s/r
Vs NZ 26 @ 75 s/r
Vs SL 18 @ 46 s/r
Vs WI 25 @ 45 s/r

All this numbers are good enough to be ATG, only the ones vs the W. I are good enough for someone vying to be the best ever.

Hadlee
Vs Aus 17.85 @ 43
Vs Eng 24.94 @ 58
Vs Ind 22.22 @ 44
Pak 44.7 @ 60
SL 12.29 @ 34
WI 27.26 @ 57

Slightly better, with standout performances vs Australia and India. He played only 3 matches in Pakistan and not aware of any other influences.

Marshall
Vs Aus 23.12 @ 54
Vs Eng 18.7 @ 45
Vs Ind 24.61 @ 49
Vs NZ 32.11 @ 79
Vs Pak 21.45

He too only played 3 tests in NZ where he was literally injured. Everywhere else was absolutely superb. He was 5 below Imran in Australia, 6 runs better vs England and 4 runs better in India, even in Pakistan he averaged a stellar 21. Marshall never played vs the minnows of SL.

These numbers aren't even comparable. And while all 3 are all unquestioned ATGs, there was no comparison. Marshall just has that clear edge over Imran.

 

[Coronis]

Hayden
Simpson
Bradman*
Smith
Chappell
Border
Gilchrist+
Davidson
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

 

[Red]

Today:

Morris
Trumper
Bradman
Smith
Miller
Harvey
Gilchrist
Warne
Lillee
OReilly
McGrath

 

[Red]

Lawry
Simpson
Ponting
Chappell
McCabe
Border
Healy
Davidson
Lindwall
Johnston
Grimmett

 

[kyear2]

Think Coronis one is a bit stronger.

 

[AndrewB]

This must have been done before in this thread, but I can't wade through 677 pages:

Northern Hemisphere:
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Kumar Sangakkara
Gary Sobers
Imran Khan
Alan Knott
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes

Southern Hemisphere
Barry Richards
Victor Trumper
Don Bradman
Graeme Pollock
Steve Smith
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne
Dale Steyn
Glenn McGrath

 

[kyear2]

This must have been done before in this thread, but I can't wade through 677 pages:

Northern Hemisphere:
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Kumar Sangakkara
Gary Sobers
Imran Khan
Alan Knott
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Sydney Barnes

Southern Hemisphere
Barry Richards
Victor Trumper
Don Bradman
Graeme Pollock
Steve Smith
Keith Miller
Adam Gilchrist
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne
Dale Steyn
Glenn McGrath

Love it

Northern Hemisphere:
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Gary Sobers
Imran Khan
Alan Knott
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Fred Trueman

Southern Hemisphere
Barry Richards
Matthew Hayden
Don Bradman
Graeme Pollock
Steve Smith
Jacques Kallis
Adam Gilchrist
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne
Dale Steyn
Glenn McGrath

 

[Slifer]

Love it

Northern Hemisphere:
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Gary Sobers
Imran Khan
Alan Knott
Malcolm Marshall
Muttiah Muralitharan
Fred Trueman

Southern Hemisphere
Barry Richards
Matthew Hayden
Don Bradman
Graeme Pollock
Steve Smith
Jacques Kallis
Adam Gilchrist
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne
Dale Steyn
Glenn McGrath

Pretty much about as even as two years can get. Even factoring in Gilchrist and Bradman in the southern team

 

[stephen]

Pretty much about as even as two years can get. Even factoring in Gilchrist and Bradman in the southern team

McWarne vs Murashall is a tantalising prospect.