Top Five Cricketers from each country

[stephen]

He also single handedly dragged Australia to a world cup win.

Warne is a lot like Akram. He was a joy to watch, an entertainer. To say that he was overrated in the wisden thing is possibly true with recency bias, but Warne in the 90s (until his shoulder injury) was a phenomenon like no other. His flipper was the most potent variation I've ever seen a bowler bowl. The batsmen who picked it (and a few did) tried to survive it.

Warne from that India tour (Which he was playing injured) couldn't bowl it any more and mostly outsmarted batsmen with leg break variations.

He was most certainly not overrated. The real shame is that India never really played him at his peak. I'd really liked to have seen him play India in 02/03, but alas; we got MacGill instead.

 

[h_hurricane]

He also single handedly dragged Australia to a world cup win.

He was most certainly not overrated. The real shame is that India never really played him at his peak.

Do World cups really matter while rating players? In an ODI forum, you mentioned Kapil Dev was over-rated despite him dragging India to a world cup win(and that too a team far poorer to the one Warne had).

He played India in 1991-92,97-98,99-00,2000-01,2004. That is 5 series spread over 13 seasons. Wouldn't that be more of an evidence that he simply couldn't cut it ?

His performance against other teams barely dipped in the post flipper era.

Warne is most certainly an ATG cricketer but with flaws like many. Certainly in the class of Ambrose,Akram,Mcgrath,Marshall,Murali etc. All ATG bowlers. However elevating him to a level far above them is clearly over-rating him.

 

[Slifer]

When I said most iconic .. i meant this. Not decade wise , generation wise.

WG
Ranji
Hobbs
Bradman
Sobers
Lillee
Viv
Sachin

Looks about right to me

 

[trundler]

ITT: Stephen gets nearly everything wrong

 

[Malcolm]

Warne is the most charismatic cricketer I have ever seen.

 

[a massive zebra]

Warne in the 90s (until his shoulder injury) was a phenomenon like no other. His flipper was the most potent variation I've ever seen a bowler bowl.

Nonsense. Waqar's inswinging yorker was much more potent and got many more wickets at a much better strike rate than Warne's flipper.

As a matter of fact, Warne's Test strike rate actually IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY in the post shoulder injury/post flipper era.

Warne in the 90s: 351 Test wickets @ 64.3 strike rate
Warne in the 00s: 357 Test wickets @ 50.7 strike rate

 

[h_hurricane]

His strike rate improved even further in the post diuretic era. Clearly knew when to abandon one potent weapon and move on to another.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

217 wickets @ 49.8 strike rate

 

[a massive zebra]

His strike rate improved even further in the post diuretic era. Clearly knew when to abandon one potent weapon and move on to another.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

317 wickets @ 49.8 strike rate

Your link shows 217 wickets.

 

[h_hurricane]

Your link shows 217 wickets.

Thanks edited.

 

[Daemon]

Glad we're all in agreement that Australia suck and Tendulkar is underrated

 

[stephen]

Waqar's inswinging Yorker was incredible. It's the ball I think of when I think of Waqar. I've never really thought of it as a variation, though I guess it is come to think about it.

I was genuinely surprised at the gap between Warne's strike rate in the 00s vs the 90s (especially when I looked at the records - 64 in the 90s vs 50 in the 00s).

Interestingly enough the gap was virtually the same for Murali, despite Murali's average in the 90s being 27 vs 20 in the 00s. Saqlain also struck in the 60s in the 90s. Kumble struck at nearly 70. MacGill has an unusually low strike rate for the 90s but that's because he only played in friendly conditions. He's the only spinner with a sub-60 strike rate in the 90s though.

In the 00s, Warne and Murali both dropped from striking at 62 to striking at 51. MacGill stuck at 57. Mendis and Swann also struck at less than 60. Kumble struck at under 64.

Obviously the 00s were harder for pace bowlers averages, but it does seem like spinners started striking significantly faster than they did in the 90s.

This to me is far more interesting than the wisden top 5 or whether Warne was overrated.

 

[stephen]

Ok looking more closely at Warne and Murali's stats, it appears that Murali improved in the 00s mostly by improving his home record to ridiculous levels. His away record didn't change much.

Warne did the opposite - his away record got ridiculous while his home record got worse. Warne averaged 29.5 (SR 61) at home after 2000 and 24 away (SR 46). Pre-2000 he averaged 24 at home (SR 60) and 27 away (SR 69).

I don't really know what to make of any of that really except that stats aren't everything.

 

[Borges]

So it would appear that this Warne became unfit and ineffectual whenever he played India, and then magically became fitter and more potent than ever before when he stopped playing them. This is is very interesting: was it psychosomatic? Or was it just plain malingering?

 

[stephen]

So it would appear that this Warne became unfit and ineffectual whenever he played India, and then magically became fitter and more potent than ever before when he stopped playing them. This is is very interesting: was it psychosomatic? Or was it just plain malingering?

He wasn't ready in 91/92.
1998 he played injured.
1999 he was in the worst form of his life because he was coming back from the injury.
2001 he was still battling injuries. He only truly recovered from his injuries some time in 2002 (he averaged 71 vs New Zealand at home in 2001)
2004 he averaged 30 in India and missed a Bunsen ironically due to picking up another minor injury. The test he missed, Clarke took 5/9. He did get one five wicket haul on this tour and this was the truest reflection of his talent.

It really was as much a case of a combination of injury and India's batting skill against spin, particularly Tendulkar. But it's telling that Warne didn't even pick up much in the way of cheap tail end wickets against India.

Basically this run of series:

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[vcs]

Warne is the most charismatic cricketer I have ever seen.

I agree with this. All the facts being pointed out about Warne in this thread are true and fair, but I can't help feeling that griping about his record against India is missing the point of Warne a bit.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I agree with this. All the facts being pointed out about Warne in this thread are true and fair, but I can't help feeling that griping about his record against India is missing the point of Warne a bit.

Oh for sure, in the bigger picture it doesnt matter. It was just brought up in response to mr_mister holding Grimmet's record against England against him when comparing him to Warne.

 

[smash84]

Warne is the most charismatic cricketer I have ever seen.

You should have seen Viv

 

[MrPrez]

So if we're playing this Warne game, Murali averaged 45 in India, 75 in Australia, and 19 at home.

Was Murali just a minnow/home/poor-against-spin bully who couldn't step up when he visited the big batting line-ups of his generation?

Meanwhile Dale Steyn doesn't average under 33 anywhere in the world, and averages 21.38 in India (possibly the best batting line-up of his generation, and in conditions unsuitable to pace/swing bowling).

If we're going by this metric, is Steyn clearly better than Muralitharan was?

 

[smash84]

So if we're playing this Warne game, Murali averaged 45 in India, 75 in Australia, and 19 at home.

Was Murali just a minnow/home/poor-against-spin bully who couldn't step up when he visited the big batting line-ups of his generation?

Meanwhile Dale Steyn doesn't average under 33 anywhere in the world, and averages less in India (possibly the best batting line-up of his generation, and in conditions unsuitable to pace/swing bowling).

If we're going by this metric, is Steyn clearly better than Muralitharan was?

I would definitely think so.

Steyn for me is right up there in the bracket with McG, Hadlee, Marshall.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

So if we're playing this Warne game, Murali averaged 45 in India, 75 in Australia, and 19 at home.

Was Murali just a minnow/home/poor-against-spin bully who couldn't step up when he visited the big batting line-ups of his generation?

Meanwhile Dale Steyn doesn't average under 33 anywhere in the world, and averages 21.38 in India (possibly the best batting line-up of his generation, and in conditions unsuitable to pace/swing bowling).

If we're going by this metric, is Steyn clearly better than Muralitharan was?

Not Just Steyn .. all top level ATG Pacers..Akram , Marshall , Hadlee , Steyn , Lillee ,McGrath , > Murali and Warne.