Rank and rate these test openers of last 25 years

[TheJediBrah]

Hayden averages 35 or less in 5 different countries as opposed to 1 for Smith. And when it comes to facing ATG attacks, how are Hayden's numbers against peak Amrbose/Walsh?

Picking random stats to suit your argument means nothing. Despite those stats Hayden still averages more than Smith over a career, what does that tell you? There's just as many, if not more, specific stats you could choose that support Hayden.

Yeah I tend to agree, though I wouldn't say he's miles better. Smith was more consistent and did well everywhere except India. Hayden definitely had more highs and a ridiculous home record but overall he's got holes like his record in England/NZ/SA that can't be overlooked.

Not wrong, but it's a bit of a biased way to look at things. We have a tendency to rate "consistency" and performance in perceived "difficult conditions" relatively higher than other performances, for no practical reason.

I'd take someone who dominates in suitable conditions (scoring prolifically and quickly, and hence setting up to win games of cricket) and yet struggles sometimes in other conditions, over someone who is very good in all conditions, more often than not.

 

[honestbharani]

Picking random stats to suit your argument means nothing. Despite those stats Hayden still averages more than Smith over a career, what does that tell you? There's just as many, if not more, specific stats you could choose that support Hayden.

And of course, it did not occur to you when vcs pointed out Smith's record against McWarne..


Dude, be consistent. Any stat you pick to compare players are random. And averaging less than 35 as an opener in 5 countries spread across continents is far less random than performances against 2 bowlers in an attack that the other person in the comparison had never faced in a test match.

 

[honestbharani]

FWIW, I saw both men's career play out as a fan. And you can go back and read any number of Hayden related posts and discussions here from back in the mid noughties, esp. during the 2005 Ashes. I will fight to this day that Martyn was shafted to keep Hayden around and got to bully a few more insipid attacks to boost his average, something Marto never got the chance to do post those Ashes.

 

[TheJediBrah]

And of course, it did not occur to you when vcs pointed out Smith's record against McWarne..

Dude, be consistent. Any stat you pick to compare players are random. And averaging less than 35 as an opener in 5 countries spread across continents is far less random than performances against 2 bowlers in an attack that the other person in the comparison had never faced in a test match.

Sorry, don't quite understand what you're saying here

 

[mr_mister]

batting averages are deceptive anyway when discussing openers. They get **** all not-outs so they'll always be lower then they deserve.

Also I'm looking at his stats honestb and it appears he averages sub 35 in only 3 countries, England, New Zealand(in 4 tests) and South Africa.


Averaging over 50 in India and over 50 at home shows that Hayden could handle pace and spin like a pro.

 

[honestbharani]

Sorry, don't quite understand what you're saying here

Not my problem. Post is pretty clear.

 

[honestbharani]

batting averages are deceptive anyway when discussing openers. They get **** all not-outs so they'll always be lower then they deserve.

Also I'm looking at his stats honestb and it appears he averages sub 35 in only 3 countries, England, New Zealand(in 4 tests) and South Africa.

Yeah my bad, its 4. I said 35 or lesser, so I am including Bangladesh.

 

[mr_mister]

he played 2 tests in bangladesh dude. its not a large enough sample size to be important

 

[RK_123]

Hayden averages 35 or less in 5 different countries as opposed to 1 for Smith. And when it comes to facing ATG attacks, how are Hayden's numbers against peak Amrbose/Walsh?


Hayden sucked a big one everytime he was presented with a challenge as a batsman. Granted he was awesome against spin and dominated India in a way no one had done since Andy Flower but he is miles behind Smith as a batsman.

Which 5 countries? I recall it's three not five.

 

[RK_123]

Yeah my bad, its 4. I said 35 or lesser, so I am including Bangladesh.

Bangladesh of that time hardly matters given
Hayden was so phenomenonal in India and UAE.

 

[mr_mister]

also, in their home country where they both played 50+ tests, Hayden averaged 57 and Smith averaged 41

Let's not forget we still want our players to be great at home as well as away

 

[Daemon]

Picking random stats to suit your argument means nothing. Despite those stats Hayden still averages more than Smith over a career, what does that tell you? There's just as many, if not more, specific stats you could choose that support Hayden.



Not wrong, but it's a bit of a biased way to look at things. We have a tendency to rate "consistency" and performance in perceived "difficult conditions" relatively higher than other performances, for no practical reason.

I'd take someone who dominates in suitable conditions (scoring prolifically and quickly, and hence setting up to win games of cricket) and yet struggles sometimes in other conditions, over someone who is very good in all conditions, more often than not.

I like the latter because it gives you a better shot at winning overseas which I value more.

Also possibly related: I dislike Ashwin immensely, so I can't be seen favouring home records

 

[TheJediBrah]

also, in their home country where they both played 50+ tests, Hayden averaged 57 and Smith averaged 41

Let's not forget we still want our players to be great at home as well as away

That's a pretty definitive stat

I like the latter because it gives you a better shot at winning overseas which I value more.

Also possibly related: I dislike Ashwin immensely, so I can't be seen favouring home records

No point winning overseas if you're going to lose at home just as often

 

[RK_123]

Smith was man of the series in SA's series win in both England and Australia.


And even in UAE, he smashed a double hundred Vs Ajmal in Dubai and changed the course of the series.

Hayden was explosive and can score fast but Smith was a bigger match winner. He Changed the complexion of SA cricket and hence they became a force since 2008-2014.

 

[RK_123]

That's a pretty definitive stat



No point winning overseas if you're going to lose at home just as often

SA conditions are regarded as toughest to bat and opening is even harder.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Smith was man of the series in SA's series win in both England and Australia.


And even in UAE, he smashed a double hundred Vs Ajmal in Dubai and changed the course of the series.

Hayden was explosive and can score fast but Smith was a bigger match winner. He Changed the complexion of SA cricket and hence they became a force since 2008-2014.

I don't think that's really the case though

 

[mr_mister]

SA conditions are regarded as toughest to bat and opening is even harder.

toughest? or tougher out of RSA and Australia

no way are they the 'toughest' IMO

 

[TheJediBrah]

SA conditions are regarded as toughest to bat and opening is even harder.

Very hard to split the 2 in my mind. So hard to compare as well when they have such different strengths and records, and hence there's always going to be a division of opinion when it comes to which was "better".

 

[RK_123]

I don't think that's really the case though

You haven't followed Smith's career then.Just read the very last of mine post you quoted. He is widely regarded as one of the biggest match winners.Just look at some of his innings Vs England. He only failed vs India.

 

[RK_123]

toughest? or tougher out of RSA and Australia

no way are they the 'toughest' IMO

Why not?? Most South Africans AVG better away from home than at home.

Gibbs
Kirsten
Smith
Amla
ABDV