Is MS Dhoni an ATG OdI batsmen?

[Black_Warrior]

I just argued in this thread about context and analysing stats within that context but this is a great example of misapplying that theory. Yes Bevan averaging 56 in his era is truly remarkable. But to use that to beat on Dhoni because ABD, and Kohli averaged 50 too is silly. The fact that Bevan had a remarkable average in his era does nothing to take away Dhoni's value as an ATG cricketer.

That's a bit like saying Marshal's average of 20 is nothing special when there were so many great fast bowlers averaging around that. Yes Steyn's average of 22 today is remarkable given that no one has that average. But that is not an argument I would use to suggest he is better than Marshall.

 

[cnerd123]

I have to nitpick on this - a batsman's SR in a successful runchase doesn't matter because, well, it was successful. Their job was to win the game and they did it. If you can chase down a target batting at a SR of 66 why on earth would you bat at 90? There is no point to it.

 

[Black_Warrior]

Agreed and it would rarely ever come up because we are talking about an incredible chases, pretty sure they required much much more than 66 SR.

If they are playing Pakistan and chasing 193 in 50 overs and do it successfully, pretty sure no one would be talking about it

 

[stephen]

The stats literally tell you you are wrong. This different era bs doesn't fly when the difference in strike rate is like Steve Smith vs Bradman in averages.



That might well be true but this was always about how dire your style of debating is more than anything.

There's lies, damned lies and statistics.

I would argue that in a successful chase, strike rate is irrelevant. It's irrelevant whether you strike at 30 or at 300 if you get your team over the line. What actually matters is not outs in successful chases.

They have virtually identical averages and not out percentages in successful chases. They similarly have very low numbers of not outs in losing chases (showing how vital they were to their teams effort).

Dhoni plays the majority of his ODI cricket on grounds which are easier to score large totals on. The overall strike rate in his era is way higher than in Bevan's era.

Dhoni also has a worse record against the best attacks of his era - 31 vs South Africa, 42 vs Australia. Bevan's worst was 44 vs South Africa and 49 vs India.

But most telling of all is the gap between Dhoni's away record and his home record. 58 vs 44 is a massive gap while Bevan had virtually no gap at all with 55 vs 52.

When you're separating greats you have to be selective. Both players are damn fine and would make any side in the world. But Bevan was clearly the better batsman.

 

[Daemon]

Bevan could bat at a lower SR and win games because the rest of his team and bowling lineup was amazeballs. Dhoni had to walk in after Munaf Patel and Sreesanth had conceded 800. I am going to conveniently ignore the fact that we had Tendulkar, Kohli and Sehwag btw so don't you dare.

 

[RK_123]

If conditions dont make difference in odis, how has Dhoni failed to win his team any game vs Aus/ SA/Eng/Pak outside Asia and just won one game vs NZ that too against a rubbish side?

Dhoni has got so many great finishes in Asia but away he has very few finishes and that too vs the likes of SL(alien conditions for them too) and WI who dont have a potent pace attack.

Against better pace bowling attack outside Asia, I will take both Bevan and Klusenar over Dhoni.Overall, IMO, Dhoni is a clear second to Bevan who has won games everywhere for his team.

 

[RK_123]

There's just a lot more atg batsmen in this era.

Ab, Dhoni, Kohli, Amla are all atg top 10 material.

At this point your posts just seem to be blind to facts though so I'll stop here.

Amla isn't an ATG in odis.

 

[Red]

Amla isn't an ATG in odis.

Rubbish. He most certainly is.

One of the most underrated ODI bats of all time.

 

[honestbharani]

Firstly, I only said that other people have done what Dhoni has done, not that he had anything to prove.

Secondly, Dhoni's average is very good but there are others in the modern era with a similar average. That means he had contemporaries who are at or around his level. The next best behind Bevan was averaging a full 6 runs less than him (Abbas, Richards and Turner all had averages of 47, though their careers ended before Bevan's began).

The thing about Bevan though was that he was not a statistics machine, he was a match-winning machine. He never took risks unless he had to. It almost never happened that he was not out in a losing chase. People criticise him for his not outs, but when he was not out, Australia generally won.

It's only people who didn't see him play who think he's not the GOAT finisher. He's the second batsman on the team sheet behind Viv. Dhoni is up there but there is no point playing Dhoni if you pick Gilchrist.

Just about every poster in this thread would prove you wrong here.

 

[honestbharani]

Well, Bevan had Mark Waugh, Gilchrist, Ponting batting above him and the other Waugh either below or above him as well. Its conveniently forgotten by Steven too.

 

[Red]

I dont rate Bevan as highly as others, but I've gone thru this not long ago on here.

Good ODI batsman but slightly overrated. Absolutely no where near being the GOAT ODI batsman, possibly not even in the top ten IMO.

 

[honestbharani]

If conditions dont make difference in odis, how has Dhoni failed to win his team any game vs Aus/ SA/Eng/Pak outside Asia and just won one game vs NZ that too against a rubbish side?

Dhoni has got so many great finishes in Asia but away he has very few finishes and that too vs the likes of SL(alien conditions for them too) and WI who dont have a potent pace attack.

Against better pace bowling attack outside Asia, I will take both Bevan and Klusenar over Dhoni.Overall, IMO, Dhoni is a clear second to Bevan who has won games everywhere for his team.

Which ones in SL, Pak and Ind?

 

[RK_123]

Rubbish. He most certainly is.

One of the most underrated ODI bats of all time.

Went missing in World Cups with his two hundreds coming only against non test playing nations.I dont think a player can be an ATG unless he performs in the biggest tourney.What is the point of consistently scoring hundreds for fun in low pressure bilateral games?

Btw his record when you exclude minnows and WI are:

Avgs 44 @SR 85 and against the best odi attack i.e. Aus, he avgs 33 only.

 

[honestbharani]

Went missing in World Cups with his two hundreds coming only against non test playing nations.I dont think a player can be an ATG unless he performs in the biggest tourney.What is the point of consistently scoring hundreds for fun in low pressure bilateral games?

Btw his record when you exclude minnows and WI are:

Avgs 44 @SR 85 and against the best odi attack i.e. Aus, he avgs 33 only.

Does your opinion = fact in your head? What is the basis for crowning Aus as this during Amla's career?

 

[RK_123]

Which ones in SL, Pak and Ind?

Scorecard - 1997-1998 Coca-Cola Cup - 6th Match - Australia v India - Sharjah - 22/04/1998

Scorecard - 1997-1998 Pepsi Triangular Series - 7th Match - India v Australia - Delhi - 14/04/1998

Scorecard - 2000-2001 India v Australia - 5th Match - Margao - 06/04/2001

Scorecard - 2003-2004 TVS Cup - 7th Match - Australia v New Zealand - Guwahati - 09/11/2003

 

[RK_123]

Does your opinion = fact in your head? What is the basis for crowning Aus as this during Amla's career?

Who else has the best attack in Odis except Australia? He cant play his own attacks.Is that what you could come up with?

 

[honestbharani]

Scorecard - 1997-1998 Coca-Cola Cup - 6th Match - Australia v India - Sharjah - 22/04/1998

Scorecard - 1997-1998 Pepsi Triangular Series - 7th Match - India v Australia - Delhi - 14/04/1998

Scorecard - 2000-2001 India v Australia - 5th Match - Margao - 06/04/2001

Scorecard - 2003-2004 TVS Cup - 7th Match - Australia v New Zealand - Guwahati - 09/11/2003

1. Not Match winning. It was a typical good knock on a flat track.

2. Again, not match winning. Match was won due to the others batting fast. He almost lost the game for Aus, btw. And I watched the full game live.

3. Same as above.

4. The only real match winning knock, but lets take a look at the bowling he was against, shall we?


EDIT: And funny how there is nothing from Pak or SL there in the list as well. All countries and conditions, indeed.

 

[cnerd123]

whether or not a batsman gets to play a match winning innings is out of their control. How many opportunities do even guys like MSD and Bevan get to play such a knock, let alone in all conditions and all countries?

 

[Black_Warrior]

This is such a dumb conversation

 

[mr_mister]

1. Not Match winning. It was a typical good knock on a flat track.

2. Again, not match winning. Match was won due to the others batting fast. He almost lost the game for Aus, btw. And I watched the full game live.

3. Same as above.

4. The only real match winning knock, but lets take a look at the bowling he was against, shall we?


EDIT: And funny how there is nothing from Pak or SL there in the list as well. All countries and conditions, indeed.

what a bogus post


only with your match 2 analysis do you come close to a good point but it's still way off. he played sensible because this situation demanded it