Why do England struggle to produce undisputedly great players?

[TheJediBrah]

I really like the Australia snub in this post.......intentional??

He probably just didn't want to list 15+ players tbf

 

[Howe_zat]

And yet another Aus diss..........this conversation is getting me horny!!

It's easier to leave out Australia when talking about modern greats, they had such a boom in the 90s and 2000s they're a different situation

We're talking about why England produce fewer 'great' players than even the sides they've been as good as overall.

 

[Adders]

Fun suckers!!

 

[ImpatientLime]

Following on from that and other posts, I would say it's at the "Platinum" level of great (as mentioned earlier) where England (at least recently) are lacking - the level where since 1990 you'd have, say, Lara + Ambrose for WI, Kallis + Steyn for SA, Tendulkar + Dravid for India.... England seem to have players who play at that level for a year or two (Gatting, Vaughan, Harmison, Flintoff) but don't really sustain it (no doubt other countries do as well, but I'm less likely to notice them).

flintoff is an interesting one because between 2003 and 2006 he averaged around 40 with the bat and 28 with the ball. over that time he toured india, pakistan, south africa and took part in the 2005 ashes. that is some run.

people talk about cook and how hard it is to open the batting but there is nothing harder than putting together both facets of your game as an all rounder. how many other all round greats put together such runs? genuine question btw.

 

[Coronis]

We haven't had any undisputedly great players like Australia, India and South Africa have but we have had some bloody good ones or we wouldn't have reached number 1 in the rankings for a time. I think you can legitimately say Swann is our best player since Botham given he was head and shoulders above any spinner we have had since Underwood who is regarded our greatest one ever and was easily the best in the world for a long time too. No other player has dominated like he did for a long period. Cook has to be close as does Anderson, Broad, Flintoff and KP but they are all a level just below being an ATG. If we picked England sides from history then all would probably make the 2nd XI or go very close.

It may well be that history will be kinder to them and in 20 years time we will all look back and regard them as a lot better than we do now but who knows the likes of Root and the youngsters we have coming along at present may surpass the players of the last 10-15 years but only time will tell.

Swann easily the best spinner in the world? When the hell did this happen? Whilst Murali was playing or after he retired, when Ajmal and Herath clearly outperformed him?

 

[AndrewB]

I'd hazard that you're greatly overrating those players if you think any of them deserve to be in this conversation

More to make the point that if we're agreeing that none of those are even worth mentioning, I'd be struggling to name more than a handful of "greats" who've played for, say, India since 1990: Tendulkar, Dravid, Sehwah, Kumble, ... ? If you're going to include, say, Laxman, Srinath, Harbhajan, then some of those England players would come into consideration. Similarly for WI, there's Lara, Chanderpaul, Ambrose, Walsh,and possibly Ian Bishop, but that's about it.

(And yes, I didn't bother to include the recent Aussie "Platinum" players in the other post because I thought it could be taken as read that there have been several).

 

[91Jmay]

Swann easily the best spinner in the world? When the hell did this happen? Whilst Murali was playing or after he retired, when Ajmal and Herath clearly outperformed him?

Rubbish. Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

Swann best spinner in world comfortably for 4 year period.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Swann easily the best spinner in the world? When the hell did this happen? Whilst Murali was playing or after he retired, when Ajmal and Herath clearly outperformed him?

Well Murali had gone from the game, Fatty wasn't as good as he became and the other bloke was a chucker. What else don't you understand?

 

[Stace]

I think Stokes has just as good a chance to be a great as Root does. Stokes got a 100 and 5fer in Aus in his first series, got man of the series in SA for runs and very very good bowling, there was that brilliant match winning 90 and 100 against NZ at Lords. He has really matured over the last 12-18 months after the bad patch he had. he's a real match winner with bat and ball and is electric in the field. In his generation there doesn't seem to be much competition (yet) for fast bowling all-rounders just MMarsh (too early to say Woakes but what a summer he's had), so Stokes could very easily be the best all-rounder of his generation its just a question of how far can he go.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

Stokes is clearly on target to be a better all rounder than Flintoff. A better bat but not as good a bowler already and similar as a fielder. If Stokes improves at the same rate that Flintoff did with the ball then he will be a seriously good player.

 

[ImpatientLime]

reckon stokes is a much better fielder than flintoff. freddie one of the more overrated slippers. trescothick was way better than him in that cordon.

 

[Furball]

I can understand why you'd think this, I've thought the same thing watching him bowl in swinging conditions. He looks unplayable at times. But there's a lot of times where his bowling is toothless and there's no way you can compare Jimmy Anderson to the dozens of bowlers with low-20s averages

Maybe he gets points for longevity though

Name these 'lots of occasions'

Bowling with cracked ribs in Australia does not count.

 

[Shri]

Swann easily the best spinner in the world? When the hell did this happen? Whilst Murali was playing or after he retired, when Ajmal and Herath clearly outperformed him?

Ajmal was a filthy chucker. Doesn't count.

 

[Shri]

Stokes is clearly on target to be a better all rounder than Flintoff. A better bat but not as good a bowler already and similar as a fielder. If Stokes improves at the same rate that Flintoff did with the ball then he will be a seriously good player.

Flintoff was witty as ****. Stokes is another boring angry ginger.

 

[Stefan9]

How has Jimmy Anderson not been mentioned in this thread??

Only Steyn has been better in this current generation of fast bowlers and he is a legitimate ATG. I don't see how Jimmy can not be considered an "undisputedly great player"

Anderson's numbers are very similar to morne morkel and you won't find any trying to claim morne is a great...

 

[OverratedSanity]

Swann easily the best spinner in the world? When the hell did this happen? Whilst Murali was playing or after he retired, when Ajmal and Herath clearly outperformed him?

Swann was the best in the world in 2009-11 or so. Herath hadn't quite hit TPC level and Murali was winding down.

Ajmal's a chucker and doesn't count.

 

[Furball]

Anderson's numbers are very similar to morne morkel and you won't find any trying to claim morne is a great...

When Morne Morkel takes 450 Tes wickets come back to me.

 

[Stefan9]

Who do you regard as great from those other countries "post-Botham" - from, say, 1990 - bearing in mind that you haven't included Thorpe, Trescothick, Bell, Vaughan, Stewart, Gough, Caddick, Swann, Harmison as even borderline? (If you're regarding "post-Botham" as from 1980, the gap between England and Aus/SA/Ind/WI is probably more clear-cut, since England were rubbish for most of the 80s... note that all but one of your England list could be regarded as "post-2000").

For South Africa: Steyn,Pollock,Donald,Smith,Amla, ABDV ,Ntini,Gary Kirsten and Brian McMillian.

 

[vcs]

When Morne Morkel takes 450 Tes wickets come back to me.

Morkel could take 800 wickets at 3.5 WPM averaging around 29, nipping out a couple of tailenders every match with Steyn and Philander or whoever doing the bulk of the damage, and he still wouldn't be fit to lace Anderson's boots. He's shown over the last year or so that he's no good when asked to lead the attack. Rather have Rabada.

 

[Stefan9]

I think Stokes has just as good a chance to be a great as Root does. Stokes got a 100 and 5fer in Aus in his first series, got man of the series in SA for runs and very very good bowling, there was that brilliant match winning 90 and 100 against NZ at Lords. He has really matured over the last 12-18 months after the bad patch he had. he's a real match winner with bat and ball and is electric in the field. In his generation there doesn't seem to be much competition (yet) for fast bowling all-rounders just MMarsh (too early to say Woakes but what a summer he's had), so Stokes could very easily be the best all-rounder of his generation its just a question of how far can he go.

If he can stay fit, he seems to get injured quite often.