Steve Smith vs Kane Williamson

[Zinzan]

Also, as an example, just look at this poll on PP.

The league of Tendulkar-Lara | Does any other modern era batsman belong in it? - Page 2

The overwhelming consensus is that Ponting is the only one who belongs up there with Tendulkar and Lara. Clearly his poor record in India isn't seen as a huge blemish, while Sanga's overseas record is cited numerous times as the reason for his being inferior. Bear in mind, Pakistanis rate Sanga extremely highly since he's smashed them every chance he's got. Yet they still rate Ponting higher despite his poor India record. You're just not correct on this, we know asian cricket fans... this mentality of scrutinising SC players overseas records much more than non-SC players' records in Asia is prevalent among the majority of SC cricket fans too.

My experience is very different to yours as I've explained. I've spoken with many passionate Indian fans over the years who use Ponting's record in India against him. When I get time later, I'm happy to dig up some articles from both media and forums if that'll help. I appreciate you've cited one poll above, but that is after all just one.

 

[Contra]

It's not just about Indian fans though, it's about the rest of the world, do NZ'ers pick on Ponting's Indian record? Do the English? It's not just about one single country, it's the general consensus that matters.

 

[Zinzan]

Contra - I'm referring to the SC media/fans in general, from forums, anecdotes in person, newspaper articles etc. The argument seems to be that western media/fans (although I think OS might just mean Aust/Eng, I'm not entirely sure) are much less forgiving on SC players who don't go so well in non-SC conditions than the SC media/fans are on players from the West who don't go so well in the SC. In my experience I've seen it both ways. So it seems we both mean 'general' on both respective sides.

 

[Contra]

Contra - I'm referring to the SC media/fans in general, from forums, anecdotes in person, newspaper articles etc. The argument seems to be that western media/fans (although I think OS might just mean Aust/Eng, I'm not entirely sure) are much less forgiving on SC players who don't go so well in non-SC conditions than the SC media/fans are on players from the West who don't go so well in the SC. In my experience I've seen it both ways. So it seems we both mean 'general' on both respective sides.

But that's sort of the point, you would have to find examples of Sri lankan and Pakistani, even Bangladeshi fans who point out Ponting's record in India (or we can even use other players as example rather than just Ponting) in order to actually prove your point, just using Indian fans isn't good enough as India isn't the whole of SC.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, hence why I said SC media/fans in general. I referred earlier to the PP forum as another example, saying nothing of some SL cricket nuts I know well who very much hold it against non-SC batsmen (in particular) who don't perform there.

Once again, I don't want to go around on circles on this as it's probably already gone further than it needs to, I'm simply pointing out that in my experience this double standard occurs both ways.

 

[Jono]

I can only talk from my own experience (as we all do), and I can tell you a number of Indian's I've spoken to over the years very much hold Ponting's lack of runs in India against him, so it depends who you talk to. Even on this very forum, read some of the old Tendulkar vs. Ponting vs. Lara if you're not convinced. .

The difference is, they aren't rating him because he failed miserably in front of their eyes. Not because he failed in a specific country that they value runs more than other countries?

Plenty of Australians have seen Sehwag dominate Australia in Australia in person, but they will still say he was a FTB because of his record in Eng and SA.

 

[Jono]

With Root you sort of do know.

He's a quality batsman, and he'll end his career with a stupid number of centuries scored at an astounding average all over the world.

The same *was said for Pujara. Thought he would absolutely dominate last year, particularly after the SA tour he had.

Sometimes if you fail overseas in a short period it doesn't necessarily mean you are failing because you are overseas. Pujara was in form in SA and went bang bang. He got out of form and stopped scoring runs. Just happened to be during that period that he was playing overseas tests.

If Root travelled to the subcontinent and failed in a 3 test series, he'd still have a gap in his record, but it wouldn't be a write-off that he's an overseas failure, he just wouldn't be an overseas success either. If he did it again and then again and we had a bigger sample size, sure.

Same goes for Pujara.

 

[Burgey]

Weird thing about Ponting was he averaged 38 and 56 in his last two test series in India, but his previous record there was so terrible it really didn't make a difference to his overall stats.

 

[Jono]

And in 2004 he missed the first 3 tests and then shows up in the 4th test on an epic square turner

Poor bloke.

 

[Zinzan]

You realise there is a difference yeah?

They aren't rating him because he failed miserably in front of their eyes. Not because he failed in a specific country that they value runs more than other countries?

As I said, other SC media/fans hold this against Ponting (and others who failed to perform in the SC) & not just Indians and I don't necessarily think they're wrong to do so if it was in fact his achilles heel, given a decent enough sample set of course.

Anyway... we're now going around in circles. I still maintain it depends who you read/listen to & I'm only talking basing it on my experience as you are on yours.

 

[Jono]

yeah fair enough, agree to disagree.

 

[NZTailender]

And the criticism of Sanga overseas is also pretty funny when you consider as a pure batsmen he did a lot to make up for his 'poor overseas record'.

 

[Zinzan]

Interesting, I'm unaware of criticisms of Sanga overseas. Enlighten us.

 

[Jono]

Haha, I can't tell if you're being serious or not Zinzan?

 

[Jono]

And the criticism of Sanga overseas is also pretty funny when you consider as a pure batsmen he did a lot to make up for his 'poor overseas record'.

funny thing about this is it is often Indian fans who will bring up Sanga's overseas record to big up Sachin and Dravid over him.

Seriously, even on Indian coverage when an Indian bat with a great record at home comes to the crease somehow his away record will be brought up. Cannot remember Sky or C9 saying "yeah great record so far for Joe Root, but what is his record like in Asia?"

There is a natural bias in cricket to scoring runs in western nations, even from subcontinent fans/coverage.

 

[NZTailender]

funny thing about this is it is often Indian fans who will bring up Sanga's overseas record to big up Sachin and Dravid over him.

Seriously, even on Indian coverage when an Indian bat with a great record at home comes to the crease somehow his away record will be brought up. Cannot remember Sky or C9 saying "yeah great record so far for Joe Root, but what is his record like in Asia?"

There is a natural bias in cricket to scoring runs in western nations, even from subcontinent fans/coverage.

And his record in Asia - not inc. SL - is hardly bad either, considering him as a pure batsman. Mind you, he only played 3 Tests in India without the gloves averaging 48 (95 in Bang, 60 in Pak and 62 in UAE).

 

[Contra]

As I said, other SC media/fans hold this against Ponting (and others who failed to perform in the SC) & not just Indians

But this whole time you've pretty much gone on about the "passionate Indian fans I've spoken to" or "Indian writers" when referring to Ponting =/

I guess I haven't really been to PP so I can't say much about it, but for the most part you have just emphasized Indian fans/writers. I just haven't seen or heard enough outcry over non-SC players not doing well from the entire sub continent to convince me otherwise.

 

[Zinzan]

But this whole time you've pretty much gone on about the "passionate Indian fans I've spoken to" or "Indian writers" when referring to Ponting =/

Nah you weren't reading thoroughly then, I've mentioned PP and other SC fans/writers as well, but in the case of Ponting's, mainly Indian fans.

I guess I haven't really been to PP so I can't say much about it, but for the most part you have just emphasized Indian fans/writers. I just haven't seen or heard enough outcry over non-SC players not doing well from the entire sub continent to convince me otherwise

Well I have, hence why I've maintained it really depends where you come from. I think I notice it more acutely than you do when it comes to SC media/fans and you probably notice it more acutely from the western media/fans, which is hardly surprising.

Anyway...I think we've hijacked this thread on this point enough now.

 

[Flem274*]

Tbh I agree the bias is there but I don't think we can lunp in all SC or west as the same. Aus/eng/india cricket popularity and media machines tend toforget all about Mathews, YK etc. AB and Amla were underrated for a long time too.

 

[Zinzan]

Tbh I agree the bias is there but I don't think we can lunp in all SC or west as the same. Aus/eng/india cricket popularity and media machines tend toforget all about Mathews, YK etc. AB and Amla were underrated for a long time too.

Interesting take, that's an entirely different argument altogether and there may be some truth to that, especially considering they are the big 3.

All I know for sure is it seems we(NZ'ders) will always be poor 3rd cousins regardless of how well we play. It's just a commercial reality.

Calling for a collective 'sigh' for us little Kiwis...