Geoff Armstrong- The 100 Greatest Cricketers

[Ikki]

Basically, Miller is a version of Mike Proctor with slightly better batting, and more convincingly worse bowling.

I still rate Kallis ahead of guys like Imran and Proctor as an all-rounder due to the fact that I feel it is much harder to be a sustainable pace-bowling batting all-rounder as opposed to a bowling one. Initially some might feel that the strain is equal, but if you think about it Kallis put all of his effort into his batting, and then had to come out and bowl at close to 140kph, whereas Proccy/Imran had much less strain on themselves in batting at 7 or wherever.

The problem with someone like Kallis in an all-time line-up is that he is not getting into the team on his batting alone (well, very unlikely) and his bowling - like Sobers - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.

Every player has to bat, but not every player has to bowl. Imran on his bowling alone gets in, and he is one of the best batsmen in terms of bowling all-rounders.

The same, maybe even more, goes for Miller. I don't really know about Proctor's bowling but was he the best in the world at any stage? Because for a time Miller arguably was - or was as good as Lindwall was.

 

[MrPrez]

On a seamer's wicket Sobers was a top class bowler - he was well nigh unplayable at Lord's in this match, to give an isolated example - but as he should be playing in any truly representative all time XI as a batsman anyway the argument about his bowling is purely academic anyway

....... and as for Miller he's a pain in the neck in these sort of debates because he is the best possible example of why stats don't give you a full picture

By that do you mean he's better or worse than his stats represent?

 

[Red]

By that do you mean he's better or worse than his stats represent?

Not sure what Fred means, but imo he was a FAR better batsman than his stats indicate.

 

[MrPrez]

The problem with someone like Kallis in an all-time line-up is that he is not getting into the team on his batting alone and his bowling - like Sobers - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.

Every player has to bat, but not every player has to bowl. Imran on his bowling alone gets in, and he is one of the best batsmen in terms of bowling all-rounders.

The same, maybe even more, goes for Miller. I don't really know about Proctor's bowling but was he the best in the world at any stage? Because for a time Miller arguably was - or was as good as Lindwall was.

He isn't? He is for me...

And Proctor probably was considered the best in the world for a period, even if he couldn't prove it by dominating heaps of tests.

Your second paragraph is misleading, as at least one of the top 6 in any team should be able to turn their arm over. 3 pacers and a spinner really isn't sufficient for a match against another ATG team - they're going to fatigue way too quickly. That's why, assuming you have a keeper at 7, one of your top 6 must be an all-rounder. They don't have to bowl to the level of a McGrath, Marshall etc, but they need to be competent enough to bowl a few overs at this level. Kallis and Sobers both do this perfectly.

As I said in my ATG team, I don't feel it is needed to pick one or the other. I see space for both - Kallis as a defensive batsman, and Sobers makes it over Viv.... just. I'm still not really sure about the latter, but yeah.

 

[Red]

Basically, Miller is a version of Mike Proctor with slightly better batting, and more convincingly worse bowling.

Comparing Procter and Miller's first class stats will give a better, and fairer, indication.

Procter was a great cricketer, but I think Miller was a far better batsman.

 

[Ikki]

Having Sobers as a third seamer is bordering on ridiculous... he was a decent bowler, no more. Would be like picking Miller at No. 5... which some people have done, amazingly

That's because Miller is a #5 - he was a top order bat for one of the greatest sides of all time (The Invincibles).

If you are fitting him into a team, it's likely to be along these picks:

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Richards
Miller
Sobers
Gilchrist
Bowler1
Bowler2
Bowler3
Bowler4

Sobers is the greatest #6 of all-time, a natural position for him. Same with Gilchrist at 7. The other batsmen above him (pick who you like if you disagree with the names) are batting at their preferred positions and the bowlers aren't going to be better batsmen than Miller because he's the best bowler who can bat.

So IMO then the only logical rejig is:

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Miller
Bowler1
Bowler2
Bowler3
Bowler4

Where, sure, Gilchrist and Sobers are batting above an inferior batsman as conventional logic would dictate; but it didn't really hinder them batting at 6 and 7 as that is where they usually bat anyway. Whereas Miller's preferred (or best/most comfortable position on record) is at #5, he is now being asked to bat at #7 - an alien position to him.

The only other reasonable position for him to bat that low is if instead of another specialist seamer you pick another batting all-rounder like Kallis; which means you are then relying on 4 (not 5) specialist (or comparably able to them) bowlers and one of them (Miller) is likely to be a risk considering the work-load.

 

[MrPrez]

I think the debate isn't that Miller is batting in the wrong position; more that Miller can't be a justified top 6 batsman in an ATG team as he quite frankly isn't good enough.

 

[Ikki]

He isn't? He is for me...

I doubt for most people Kallis gets in purely as a batsman. Even if he does, his bowling has the same problem as Sobers'.

And Proctor probably was considered the best in the world for a period, even if he couldn't prove it by dominating heaps of tests.

By his record he can't be considered that because of the small sample. I meant in terms of anecdotal evidence; were people calling him the best bowler in the world?

Your second paragraph is misleading, as at least one of the top 6 in any team should be able to turn their arm over. 3 pacers and a spinner really isn't sufficient for a match against another ATG team - they're going to fatigue way too quickly. That's why, assuming you have a keeper at 7, one of your top 6 must be an all-rounder. They don't have to bowl to the level of a McGrath, Marshall etc, but they need to be competent enough to bowl a few overs at this level. Kallis and Sobers both do this perfectly.

As I said in my ATG team, I don't feel it is needed to pick one or the other. I see space for both - Kallis as a defensive batsman, and Sobers makes it over Viv.... just. I'm still not really sure about the latter, but yeah.

You're basically advocating 5 bowlers, which is fine...but why pick Sobers and Kallis to do that job when you can have someone like Miller or Imran?

If you have, let's say, 3 seamers + 2 spinners for example; Lillee, Marshall and Miller is a far better trio than Lillee, Marshall and Kallis/Sobers.

The drop off is quite big. It is the difference between a Michael Kasprowicz and a Glenn McGrath. If two such incredible teams are going against each other then the difference is going to be advantageous to one side clearly. We're talking about front-line bowlers...not simply part-timers, if that is what you meant by rolling an arm over.

 

[akilana]

What's risky about it?

Whether you bat Miller at 5 or 8, he still has to bat and since he is the best batsman of the bowling all-rounders it's fine. On the other hand, not everyone has to bowl. Therein the difference exists.

Miller is a great all rounder but he cannot make an ATG on his batting or bowling alone. There are far better batsmen to occupy positions 1-6 and there are far better bowlers that you can pick for your team. He's going to weaken batting if he's batting iin the top 6 and he'll weaken your bowling attack if he's going to be playing at 8(picked as a bowler)

 

[Ikki]

I think the debate isn't that Miller is batting in the wrong position; more that Miller can't be a justified top 6 batsman in an ATG team as he quite frankly isn't good enough.

But the point is being missed: for it doesn't matter whether he is because it doesn't hurt his teammates' batting and it enhances his.

Batting him out of order simply for the sake of convention is actually a net loss to the team.

Miller is a great all rounder but he cannot make an ATG on his batting or bowling alone. There are far better batsmen to occupy positions 1-6 and there are far better bowlers that you can pick for your team. He's going to weaken batting if he's batting iin the top 6 and he'll weaken your bowling attack if he's going to be playing at 8(picked as a bowler)

All bowling all-rounders will weaken the batting. But, that doesn't matter...bowlers have to bat. Batsmen don't have to bowl.

And the line-up suggested is the best way to get the most out of every player. Miller as a 3rd seamer is on par with anyone you'll care to name (the only non ATG stat about Miller is his wickets-per-match, which matters very little in a 5 man bowling attack where he is the 3rd seamer. Yet none of the other bowlers are on his level in terms of batting.

 

[kyear2]

The problem with someone like Kallis in an all-time line-up is that he is not getting into the team on his batting alone (well, very unlikely) and his bowling - like Sobers - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.

Every player has to bat, but not every player has to bowl. Imran on his bowling alone gets in, and he is one of the best batsmen in terms of bowling all-rounders.

The same, maybe even more, goes for Miller. I don't really know about Proctor's bowling but was he the best in the world at any stage? Because for a time Miller arguably was - or was as good as Lindwall was.

Miller was not better than Lindwall, Miller especially in the '48 series was a shock bowler. Short bursts with the every 55 overs new ball and take wickets, Lindwall bowled longer spells especially with the older ball and one of the best of All Time.

So similarily Miller cannot get into an ATG first team on his bowling alone and his batting like Sobers bowling - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.
The difference being is that Sobers's and Kallis's bowling is good enough to be the fifth bowler, Miller is not good enough to be the #5 or #6 batsman.
All being said, I do belive Miller is one of the best three bowling AR's is the history of the game and quite easily make my second team, with Kallis, as my third seamer.

 

[Red]

Miller is a great all rounder but he cannot make an ATG on his batting or bowling alone. There are far better batsmen to occupy positions 1-6 and there are far better bowlers that you can pick for your team. He's going to weaken batting if he's batting iin the top 6 and he'll weaken your bowling attack if he's going to be playing at 8(picked as a bowler)

I think the thing being discussed here is that he is being picked as a genuine all rounder. There might be better batsmen than him, and there might be better bowlers than him, but the combo he brings to the team is pretty incredible:

- test batsman who batted at #5 most of his career (and averaged over 40 there)
- legitimate opening bowler with a bowling average of 22..

There is no one else who can do this. So if you want to pick two spinners, then Miller is a massive consideration.

 

[MrPrez]

I doubt for most people Kallis gets in purely as a batsman. Even if he is, his bowling has the same problem as Sobers'.



By his record he can't be considered that because of the small sample. I meant in terms of anecdotal evidence; where people calling him the best bowler in the world?



You're basically advocating 5 bowlers, which is fine...but why pick Sobers and Kallis to do that job when you can have someone like Miller or Imran?

If you have, let's say, 3 seamers + 2 spinners for example; Lillee, Marshall and Miller is a far better trio than Lillee, Marshall and Kallis/Sobers.

The drop off is quite big. It is the difference between a Michael Kasprowicz and a Glenn McGrath. If two such incredible teams are going against each other then the difference is going to be advantageous to one side clearly. We're talking about front-line bowlers...not simply part-timers, if that is what you meant by rolling an arm over.

As I said, that was my opinion.

Cbf doing research on it but I can only imagine. I'm sure someone can confirm.

You're missing the point completely. A quality 6th batsman is more important than a quality 5th bowler. The fifth bowler is only really needed as a bowler that gives a break to the main bowlers, but at the same time is more than just a part-timer that can get caned around. The 6th batsman must be relied on to score big runs just as any other top 6 batsman. It's basic team composition.

But the point is being missed: for it doesn't matter whether he is because it doesn't hurt his teammate's batting and it enhances his.

Batting him out of order simply for the sake of convention is actually a net loss to the team.

Again, you're missing my point. The debate, as far as I can tell, is that he shouldn't be in the batting order at all. His batting isn't good enough to warrant being selected in the top 6 at all, regardless of how good his bowling is. Having 6 ATG batsmen is more important than having 5 ATG bowlers.

 

[Ikki]

Miller was not better than Lindwall, Miller especially in the '48 series was a shock bowler. Short bursts with the every 55 overs new ball and take wickets, Lindwall bowled longer spells especially with the older ball and one of the best of All Time.

So similarily Miller cannot get into an ATG first team on his bowling alone and his batting like Sobers bowling - is someway off the requisite standard for these kinds of match-ups.
The difference being is that Sobers's and Kallis's bowling is good enough to be the fifth bowler, Miller is not good enough to be the #5 or #6 batsman.
All being said, I do belive Miller is one of the best three bowling AR's is the history of the game and quite easily make my second team, with Kallis, as my third seamer.

No, they're not.

Miller is not being picked as the 5th best batsman in the team. The positioning of Miller doesn't matter. You can bat him at #8 if it makes you happy. He is still the best batsman of the bowling all-rounders.

If you don't want a bowling all-rounder, you simply do not pick him. But if you do, then his all-rounder ability is being utilised to a much greater extent than someone like Sobers or Kallis (because their bowling, if used, is a liability). Whereas all bowlers have to bat. I feel people are not appreciating this very important fact.

 

[akilana]

Picking an all rounder who's equally good in both batting and bowling for an ATG team will weaken bowling or batting depending on what you are pickinmg him for. Sobers wasn't picked for his all round ability but for his batting alone. I will want the best six batsmen and best 4 bowlers and a good keeper in the team.

 

[fredfertang]

By that do you mean he's better or worse than his stats represent?

Could have made that a bit clearer couldn't I

I rate Miller very highly indeed, even though he's Australian

 

[MrPrez]

Picking an all rounder who's equally good in both batting and bowling for an ATG team will weaken bowling or batting depending on what you are pickinmg him for. Sobers wasn't picked for his all round ability but for his batting alone. I will want the best six batsmen and best 4 bowlers and a good keeper in the team.

This is pretty much it. You should be able to back your top 6 as specialist batsmen to get you a sufficient score, and you should be able to back your 4 specialist bowlers to get you 20 wickets in a match. The batting of the bowling all-rounder and the bowling of the batting all-rounders are extras that should fall way below specialist skills in the pecking order.

 

[MrPrez]

Could have made that a bit clearer couldn't I

I rate Miller very highly indeed, even though he's Australian

Ha. That has certainly put him a few notches up in my ratings of him - an Englishman pushing an Aussie's stocks!

 

[Ikki]

As I said, that was my opinion.

Cbf doing research on it but I can only imagine. I'm sure someone can confirm.

You're missing the point completely. A quality 6th batsman is more important than a quality 5th bowler. The fifth bowler is only really needed as a bowler that gives a break to the main bowlers, but at the same time is more than just a part-timer that can get caned around. The 6th batsman must be relied on to score big runs just as any other top 6 batsman. It's basic team composition.

How so?

Miller is 10 runs off on average for being an ATG for a #5. Miller more than makes up for that difference in being superior to Kallis/Sobers as a bowler - not only saving more runs than they would go for, but getting more wickets and saving overs by doing so at a faster rate.

For example, this is something I did a long way back:

Per Inning Performance:

Batting
Sobers: 50 runs
Miller: 34 runs

Bowling
Sobers: 1.5 wickets for 51 runs and 138 balls
Miller: 1.8 wickets for 41 runs and 111 balls

Difference: 16 runs or 0.3 wickets 10 less runs and 27 less balls conceded.

Again, you're missing my point. The debate, as far as I can tell, is that he shouldn't be in the batting order at all. His batting isn't good enough to warrant being selected in the top 6 at all, regardless of how good his bowling is. Having 6 ATG batsmen is more important than having 5 ATG bowlers.

Again, my reply in the above becomes relevant.

But that's not the case with bowling all-rounders. They have to bat. So, it's preferential to have the best batting bowler. As I said, that is IF you want an all-rounder. Some sides will just go 6 specialists bats - a Gilchrist - and 4 front line bowlers. That's reasonable. I am saying, however, if you want to utilise an all-rounder, you'd be stupid to give Kallis or Sobers any overs. You are purposely hindering yourself because you are choosing to bowl an inferior bowler (not everyone has to bowl), but you do not have a choice on who bats because everybody has to. Using them to bowl a few overs - or as a throw-the-kitchen-sink move is not using them as all-rounders, that would be using them as part-timers.

 

[MrPrez]

How so?

Miller is 10 runs off on average for being an ATG for a #5. Miller more than makes up for that difference in being superior to Kallis/Sobers as a bowler - not only saving more runs than they would go for, but getting more wickets and saving overs by doing so at a faster rate.



Again, my reply in the above becomes relevant.

But that's not the case with bowling all-rounders. They have to bat. So, it's preferential to have the best batting bowler. As I said, that is IF you want an all-rounder. Some sides will just go 6 specialists bats - a Gilchrist - and 4 front line bowlers. That's reasonable. I am saying, however, if you want to utilise an all-rounder, you'd be stupid to give Kallis or Sobers any overs. You are purposely hindering yourself because you are choosing to bowl an inferior bowler (not everyone has to bowl), but you do not have a choice on who bats because everybody has to. Using them to bowl a few overs - or as a throw-the-kitchen-sink move is not using them as all-rounders, that would be using them as part-timers.

And again this highlights our disagreement with regards to the role of the fifth bowler. Five genuine bowlers doesn't give one sufficient advantage over four, if you back your best four bowlers. You get much more benefit out of putting a superior batsman in. You see, in my mind a bowling line-up of Marshall, McGrath and A.N.Other ATG bowler along with Warne doesn't need a specialist, 22-averaging bowler as much as a top 5 with the names Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, SRT and Viv needs a Sobers who averages 57 with the bat or whatever. It's a tried-and-tested formula, and the general conclusion as can be seen by the standard construction of a Test line up is the genuine 6th batsman gives more benefit than the genuine fifth bowler.