***Official*** South Africa in New Zealand 2012

[SteveNZ]

1. Guptill
2. McCullum
3. Williamson
4. Taylor
5. Franklin
6. Vettori
7. Watling
8. Bracewell
9. Southee
10. Boult
11. Martin

12. Nethula

If it is a squad of 13, I'd have van Wyk there as well. If 14, Gillespie as well to cover for a seamer.

I know with Franklin in it creates another seam option of sorts but I wouldn't be dropping Boult on that basis. Franklin is not an international bowling option of any real repute anymore, I'm picking him solely as our most equipped No.5.

Another option would be to bat McCullum at three, Williamson at five and bring in an opener but none are deserving of it. McIntosh is in awful form, How hasn't demanded it and Brodie by all reports doesn't fancy quick short stuff too much

 

[straw man]

No Brownlie or Ryder makes selecting 4 seamers harder and leaves us incredibly vulnerable to collapse. However the clincher for me is that I don't have any faith that Franklin, Nicol, Van Wyk or any of the other backups will score any runs*, so why select two of them and drop a bowler? We're going to be heavily reliant on Taylor and Vettori to score the runs anyway.

Plus it would be a travesty to not select Boult in the XI. Huge fan - looks like he loves bowling, attacks the crease hard and gets 'bowler's wickets'. Our most promising seamer IMO and adds a lot to the team.

*so I don't have a strong opinion on which of these is picked.

 

[straw man]

Sandle confirmed Ryder would not be in the test squad that will be named this morning but that had nothing to do with the incident. His omission for the tests was a form problem which coach John Wright would elaborate on later today.

Well that's one way to spin it

 

[SteveNZ]

No Brownlie or Ryder makes selecting 4 seamers harder and leaves us incredibly vulnerable to collapse. However the clincher for me is that I don't have any faith that Franklin, Nicol, Van Wyk or any of the other backups will score any runs*, so why select two of them and drop a bowler? We're going to be heavily reliant on Taylor and Vettori to score the runs anyway.

Plus it would be a travesty to not select Boult in the XI. Huge fan - looks like he loves bowling, attacks the crease hard and gets 'bowler's wickets'. Our most promising seamer IMO and adds a lot to the team.

*so I don't have a strong opinion on which of these is picked.

It won't be the way the selectors look upon it but I agree. Hence why I went with four seamers, and it just so happened Franklin can bowl as well. But also keen on the variety of a four-pronged attack and the fact they will always be fresh given they can share the load.

And I wouldn't have picked Ryder in the Test side. We're already short of batting and he's shown no extended sign that he'll remain fit for all five days. Plus his innings against Canterbury are hardly demanding of selection in whites.

 

[Mixmasterreece]

God, how screwed are we for batting depth right now?

Wasnt that long ago that we had batsmen coming out of every oriface, but no bowling talent. Now it seems the completely opposite with a lot of bowling talent on the horizon.

Wheres the batsmen of the future? Latham, Michael Bracewell and...... er.....

Wouldnt be surprised to see Latham make the 14 today,

 

[Days of Grace]

If we had to choose only 3 seamers, what's to say Southee won't be dropped for Boult?

 

[Mixmasterreece]

If we had to choose only 3 seamers, what's to say Southee won't be dropped for Boult?

I'd drop Southee in a heartbeat. Underperforming and completely full of himself.

Needs a reality check.

It's amazing how cricket in NZ seems to have this dire culture of unwarranted arrogance amongst it's youth.

 

[SteveNZ]

Ross Taylor (c) – Central Stags
Brent Arnel – Northern Knights
Trent Boult – Northern Knights
Doug Bracewell – Central Stags
Andrew Ellis – Canterbury Wizards
Martin Guptill – Auckland Aces
Chris Martin – Auckland Aces
Brendon McCullum – Otago Volts
Rob Nicol – Canterbury Wizards
Tim Southee – Northern Knights
Daniel Vettori – Northern Knights
BJ Watling – Northern Knights
Kane Williamson – Northern Knight

 

[BackFootPunch]

Ellis... Interesting, thought Wells was the 'can bat a bit and bowl a bit' type player who was in favour at the moment. Guess Ellis has impressed in his time with the ODI side, can't see him playing though. Is Arnel there to let Timmy know that he cant just keep bowling rubbish and getting selected?

 

[Immenso]

^^ is that the official team?

It's a good logical team, almost picks itself again. Nicol takes Brownlie's spot. Arnel & Ellis the leftovers

 

[Prince EWS]

Ross Taylor (c) – Central Stags
Brent Arnel – Northern Knights
Trent Boult – Northern Knights
Doug Bracewell – Central Stags
Andrew Ellis – Canterbury Wizards
Martin Guptill – Auckland Aces
Chris Martin – Auckland Aces
Brendon McCullum – Otago Volts
Rob Nicol – Canterbury Wizards
Tim Southee – Northern Knights
Daniel Vettori – Northern Knights
BJ Watling – Northern Knights
Kane Williamson – Northern Knight

Well, that's pretty disappointing. I was holding out hope for a Sinclair recall, although the last two or three or such things have come completely out of the blue when I'd given up all hope entirely. My realistic hope was for Franklin, although I think we all knew deep down it'd be Nicol, even though it probably shouldn't be.

Ellis in the squad is a bit of a WTF though. I wonder what's made them opt for him instead of Wells; maybe the feeling is now that they need more of a bowling allrounder for whatever reason. If it's because of how he played in the ODIs then it's a terrible decision, not least because he didn't really play that well in the ODIs. You can't knock his selection on domestic performance grounds but yeah, hmm, it's a bit uninspiring. Arnel's selection is a bit the same in that way.

 

[SteveNZ]

^^ is that the official team?

It's a good logical team, almost picks itself again. Nicol takes Brownlie's spot. Arnel & Ellis the leftovers

That's the 13-man squad, yeah.

I have no doubt Ellis is the better selection over Wells but it does seem odd that the latter was the man in vogue for Zimbabwe, then Ellis overtakes him by virtue of ODI/T20 performances where he's batted for 20 balls and bowled 2-3 overs in a manner not becoming of Tests.

Same with Nicol, who in 4 Plunket Shield knocks scored 114, 107 of which were in one innings. I'd rather have him but van Wyk can feel quite aggrieved.

 

[Prince EWS]

That's the 13-man squad, yeah.

I have no doubt Ellis is the better selection over Wells but it does seem odd that the latter was the man in vogue for Zimbabwe, then Ellis overtakes him by virtue of ODI/T20 performances where he's batted for 20 balls and bowled 2-3 overs in a manner not becoming of Tests.

Same with Nicol, who in 4 Plunket Shield knocks scored 114, 107 of which were in one innings. I'd rather have him but van Wyk can feel quite aggrieved.

I think van Wyk was only in the squad because they weren't 100% on Watling's keeping though; I don't think there was really any thought given to him playing as a batsman other than by sloppy cricinfo writers, so I don't really see it as inconsistent.

I agree about Wells though, and I said so in the previous post. On Wells and Ellis though - we all know Franklin's not anywhere near the bowler he was, but he still takes wickets domestically and does, on very rare occasions, turn back the clock and bowl a decent spell at above 130km/hr. There's nothing I've seen, heard or read of about Ellis or Wells to suggest they really are better bowlers than what Franklin could offer now, and there's no doubt as to who the better batsman is. If the role was to bat seven and bowl 10-15 overs a day or whatever then I'd definitely take Franklin out of the three, meagre as his bowling is at Test level these days.

 

[Mike5181]

Ross Taylor (c) – Central Stags
Brent Arnel – Northern Knights
Trent Boult – Northern Knights
Doug Bracewell – Central Stags
Andrew Ellis – Canterbury Wizards
Martin Guptill – Auckland Aces
Chris Martin – Auckland Aces
Brendon McCullum – Otago Volts
Rob Nicol – Canterbury Wizards
Tim Southee – Northern Knights
Daniel Vettori – Northern Knights
BJ Watling – Northern Knights
Kane Williamson – Northern Knight

1.Martin Guptill
2.Brendon McCullum
3.Kane Williamson
4.Ross Taylor
5.Rob Nicol
6.Daniel Vettori
7.BJ Watling+
8.Doug Bracewell
9.Tim Southee
10.Trent Boult
11.Chris Martin

God, that is a horrible team. Nicol, Ellis and to a lesser extent Arnel shouldn't be close to the test squad.

 

[SteveNZ]

I think van Wyk was only in the squad because they weren't 100% on Watling's keeping though; I don't think there was really any thought given to him playing as a batsman other than by sloppy cricinfo writers, so I don't really see it as inconsistent.

I agree about Wells though, and I said so in the previous post. On Wells and Ellis though - we all know Franklin's not anywhere near the bowler he was, but he still takes wickets domestically and does, on very rare occasions, turn back the clock and bowl a decent spell at above 130km/hr. There's nothing I've seen, heard or read of about Ellis or Wells to suggest they really are better bowlers than what Franklin could offer now, and there's no doubt as to who the better batsman is. If the role was to bat seven and bowl 10-15 overs a day or whatever then I'd definitely take Franklin out of the three, meagre as his bowling is at Test level these days.

Yep fair enough on van Wyk. All I meant is he'll feel he's aggrieved having scored such a weight of Plunket Shield runs whereas Nicol's first class averages in the last few seasons read 19.50, 38.8, 32.05, 32.07 and 28.50 this summer. So basically he's been called up on the basis of ODI knocks v Zimbabwe and 'potential'.

Not gonna get an argument with me re Franklin either. He'd have been in my team all day long, even if he has under-achieved in the past. He also averages 90 in the Plunket Shield this season with the bat. Seemed a straight-forward one to me.

To me, this season's selection policy has been the most scatter-brained I can ever remember. We got told at the start it would be based on a more methodical approach numbers-wise, but it seems to be completely the opposite. We have had guys like (and I hate to use him) Colin de make the T20 and now the ODI side based on what they think he can do, not what he has done, guys churn out big domestic numbers and not get picked, etc etc.

 

[BackFootPunch]

1.Martin Guptill
2.Brendon McCullum
3.Kane Williamson
4.Ross Taylor
5.Rob Nicol
6.Daniel Vettori
7.BJ Watling+
8.Doug Bracewell
9.Tim Southee
10.Trent Boult
11.Chris Martin

God, that is a horrible team. Nicol, Ellis and to a lesser extent Arnel shouldn't be close to the test squad.

What do you mean that is a horrible team? There are 3 changes from the team that won in Hobart; Watling instead of Young (positive) Vettori instead of Ryder (based on recent Test form a positive) and Nicol instead of Brownlie (an undoubted negative). But really, how often in the last 4 years have we only had one player who had a question mark over his place?

 

[Mike5181]

What do you mean that is a horrible team? There are 3 changes from the team that won in Hobart; Watling instead of Young (positive) Vettori instead of Ryder (based on recent Test form a positive) and Nicol instead of Brownlie (an undoubted negative). But really, how often in the last 4 years have we only had one player who had a question mark over his place?

Having Nicol at 5 ruins the whole balance of the team. It's essentially Vettori @ 5 and Watling @ 6 with only the bowlers to follow. It becomes impratical to have four seamers + Vettori but we have no-one to cover the role of an extra batsman/allrounder except Ellis.

 

[Jarquis]

Will be particularly interesting to see how SA manage to throw away a Test against that lot.

 

[BackFootPunch]

Having Nicol at 5 ruins the whole balance of the team. It's essentially Vettori @ 5 and Watling @ 6 with only the bowlers to follow. It becomes impratical to have four seamers + Vettori but we have no-one to cover the role of an allrounder except Ellis.

Vettori is the allrounder though. I'm not saying Rob Nicol is any kind of long term option in the middle order but by the time of the first test he will have played 6 matches against their bowling attack (except Philander obviously but he's the most NZ-like bowler of the lot anyway) so there's no reason he won't do just as well as anyone else. If you're uncomfortable with Nicol at 5 then swap him and Watling and Nicol can face the second new ball at 300-5 once the top order have done their job

 

[Prince EWS]

What do you mean that is a horrible team? There are 3 changes from the team that won in Hobart; Watling instead of Young (positive) Vettori instead of Ryder (based on recent Test form a positive) and Nicol instead of Brownlie (an undoubted negative). But really, how often in the last 4 years have we only had one player who had a question mark over his place?

It's the balance of the side and the apparent reserves that are causing the grief rather than the actual personnel involved in the first eleven.

May I say though that Nicol definitely should not be the only one with question marks over his place. Guptill still hasn't done anything against serious opposition, Williamson for all his talent still only averages 30 in Tests (and 25 since his debut series), Southee (although over-criticised on here IMO for some reasonable bowling in Australia) averages over 40 with the ball and hasn't taken a five wicket haul since his debut four years ago, Watling is still entirely unproven as a gloveman and a batsman and Boult has only played two Test matches (and only one non-prank one).

I'm not trying to deride what I think is a pretty good group of players, but I can see why there's negativity about the squad announcement. The reason some of those players don't have question marks over their places is because the public and indeed the selectors have little confidence in the reserves - the very players that have caused negative reactions to the squad announcement. If New Zealand had more players genuinely pushing for places then Guptill and Southee would probably get the arse or at least be under the spotlight, but it's very hard to imagine such a thing at the moment as it'd take an awful lot of under-performance to consider dropping Southee for Arnel or Guptill for .. I don't even know who the reserve opener would be anymore, but it wouldn't be pretty. This isn't a criticism of Guptill or Southee as such because every player will have troughs and periods of poor performance, but of the bare cupboard when it comes to potential replacements in such cases.