*Official* England in India

[ganeshran]

Why does it have to be one directly causes the other? As far as I'm concerned, the two are linked - there almost certainly would have been some lack-of-care factor to begin with, and as they kept getting hammered that would have been inflated exponentially.

It happened at the end of the post-Ashes ODIs too. You could see, just in the way they batted, that they more or less stopped giving a toss by the final ODI.

I dont there was any lack-of-care factor to begin the series. Why should a player treat an ODI series at home differently to the ODI series away. Professional players dont play that way.

But once they started losing, the interest levels started to go down, fielding became poorer and the team looked divided. That is where the lethargy started to show in. It was because of the initial poor performances.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

I dont there was any lack-of-care factor to begin the series. Why should a player treat an ODI series at home differently to the ODI series away. Professional players dont play that way.

But once they started losing, the interest levels started to go down, fielding became poorer and the team looked divided. That is where the lethargy started to show in. It was because of the initial poor performances.

The fielding by England was abysmal in the first match and got worse. Certainly not of the standard we are accustomed to from them. Signs straight away that there was a lack of focus.

 

[Spark]

I dont there was any lack-of-care factor to begin the series. Why should a player treat an ODI series at home differently to the ODI series away. Professional players dont play that way.

But once they started losing, the interest levels started to go down, fielding became poorer and the team looked divided. That is where the lethargy started to show in. It was because of the initial poor performances.

A range of reasons. Distance from family. Unfamiliar environment. Lack of team unity. Unclear tour purpose.

Professionalism is all well and good, yes, but they're humans too. It's possible - I'm not saying certain - that it could have had a small but non-trivial effect. The first and best sign of that is in the fielding and right from the top it was dire by recent English standards. I accept that there may be mitigating circumstances with specialist fielders playing out of position and quality fielders such as Anderson, Bell not playing, but there were a surprising amount of genuine errors that just aren't acceptable at international level.

Obviously the second half of the post is patently true.

I guess what I'm trying to say in an extraordinarily oblique way that "England fans are only jaded/dismissive because they lost!" is inaccurate in the extreme.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

I guess what I'm trying to say in an extraordinarily oblique way that "England fans are only jaded/dismissive because they lost!" is inaccurate in the extreme.

I doubt many of us would have been bothered if the tour was cancelled before it started. This isn't hindsight, just a 5 match one day tour lacks appeal even against a top side who are world champions if there are no test matches involved in the tour. The test series against Pakistan and Sri Lanka early next year have 100 times more importance in the eyes of the fans and probably the players too.

 

[centurymaker]

No, I think you would find there would be an outcry in England asking why we were so good at ODI's 20/20 and rubbish in tests. It is part of the English history that tests are more important. Always have been and always will be over here. Maybe not elsewhere but in England this is the case.

10 years down the line this may not be the case.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

10 years down the line this may not be the case.

Then test cricket is finished if that is the case. If England stop caring about it then you may as well stop playing it now rather than let it have a slow painful death.

Can't see it being the case as people are already grumbling about 20/20 overkill over here and crowds are down dramatically in the last year or so compared to when it started. Also see the amount of English fans moaning about the 7th test next summer not happening.

 

[centurymaker]

Then test cricket is finished if that is the case. If England stop caring about it then you may as well stop playing it now rather than let it have a slow painful death.

Can't see it being the case as people are already grumbling about 20/20 overkill over here and crowds are down dramatically in the last year or so compared to when it started. Also see the amount of English fans moaning about the 7th test next summer not happening.

it's because the opposition is SA.
Replace SA with NZ/pak, people wouldn't care about 1 less test.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

it's because the opposition is SA.
Replace SA with NZ/pak, people wouldn't care about 1 less test.

No, there would still be moaning about the lack of a 7th test, trust me on that one. The series against Australia is in instead, whoopee. 5 more meaningless one dayers when a test could be played instead.

 

[Kohli_fan]

No, there would still be moaning about the lack of a 7th test, trust me on that one. The series against Australia is in instead, whoopee. 5 more meaningless one dayers when a test could be played instead.

I think it is wrong to just dismiss ODIS as meanignless when they are clearly a key part of our sport! the only part of International Cricket which is a bit meaningless is Twenty20 as that should have just been kept to a domestic event!

Of course I value Test Cricket but it is not more important than an ODI series to me.

 

[centurymaker]

damn dhoni's been doing rather well lately.
in his last 7 matches against England he has avg'd infinity with scores of
78*, 50*, 87*,0*, 35*,15*,75*

 

[flibbertyjibber]

I think it is wrong to just dismiss ODIS as meanignless when they are clearly a key part of our sport! the only part of International Cricket which is a bit meaningless is Twenty20 as that should have just been kept to a domestic event!

Of course I value Test Cricket but it is not more important than an ODI series to me.

Why is it wrong. I hate the ****ers, always have and always will. Only time they matter is every 4 years in a world cup. Hit and giggle has got overkill now with IPL and Champions League getting huge priority in the calendar. Does my head in. As for the amount of 20/20 in the English summer don't get me started.

 

[Kohli_fan]

Why is it wrong. I hate the ****ers, always have and always will. Only time they matter is every 4 years in a world cup. Hit and giggle has got overkill now with IPL and Champions League getting huge priority in the calendar. Does my head in. As for the amount of 20/20 in the English summer don't get me started.

It is your perogative and you can like or not like whatever you want! But it is equally not wrong that myself and many other Indians would give equal importance to ODIS and Tests!

I do agree with Twenty20 getting too much I personally feel it should never have become an International event!

Happy Diwali by the way :-)

 

[centurymaker]

How have Odis been meaningless when guys like viv, tendulkar, mcgrath, wasim, gilly etc... are rated much higher because of their odi exploits.
though i accept that odis now have lost some significance with the emergence of IPL etc

you require different skills to succeed in ODIs (it's not fluky hit and miss stuff like t20) so a guy who can succeed in both forms is always better than a guy who can only succeed in tests.

Steyn won't be rated as the best bowler ever even if he retires with an avg 20 at a strike rate of 40 because he's ordinary in ODIs.

 

[hang on]

How have Odis been meaningless when guys like viv, tendulkar, mcgrath, wasim, gilly etc... are rated much higher because of their odi exploits.
though i accept that odis now have lost some significance with the emergence of IPL etc

you require different skills to succeed in ODIs (it's not fluky hit and miss stuff like t20) so a guy who can succeed in both forms is always better than a guy who can only succeed in tests.

Steyn won't be rated as the best bowler ever even if he retires with an avg 20 at a strike rate of 40 because he's ordinary in ODIs.

nope! and nope, again! he certainly would be. or right up there with a couple of others. imran khan's mediocre odi record does not detract from his stature as an all time great all rounder.

 

[centurymaker]

nope! and nope, again! he certainly would be. or right up there with a couple of others. imran khan's mediocre odi record does not detract from his stature as an all time great all rounder.

how's this mediocre?
bowling- avg of 26.5, econ of 3.89
batting avg of 33+

?? it's a very good record.

Imran Khan | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

edit- although his bowling avg is a bit high, he makes up for it with his low econ.

 

[hang on]

how's this mediocre?
bowling- avg of 26.5, econ of 3.89
batting avg of 33+

?? it's a very good record.

Imran Khan | Cricket Players and Officials | ESPN Cricinfo

edit- although his bowling avg is a bit high, he makes up for it with his low econ.

certainly mediocre relative to his test performances and compared to other all rounders. he is behind klusener, pollock, dev and co. - off the top of my head - on the all rounders list in odis. for example, his bowling is matched by dev. and his batting is ok in terms of average but easily bettered in terms of SR by again, for example, dev.

 

[centurymaker]

imran was a success in odis. he even led his team to world cup glory late into his career when he was well well past his peak (thats probably what affected his figures)

actually
at the start of 1988 (when he was 35+), he had an avg of 21, econ of 3.59.
Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[centurymaker]

His record at the start of 1990 (age 37+)

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

bowling avg 23, batting avg 32.

overall figures can be misleading....

 

[Daemon]

Even if we get better at them the only time it matters is the World Cup anyway. Winning that would be nice but I am realistic enough to know it won't happen as there are too many sides who put ODI's as the main priority whereas we regard tests as the holy grail over here and rightly so.

Really? So that's the reason why England are bad at ODIs?



Every one agrees that tests are the most important and demanding forms of the game, but ODIs do require their own set of skills and an example of that is that there aren't any ODI greats that you can say were poor cricketers overall. Saying that England give no importance at all to any ODI series doesn't make sense to me; it may be your own viewpoint but I don't the the ECB and the players take that stand. Furthermore Flower's reaction yesterday showed that they did in fact treat this series seriously. I don't deny that England obviously prioritize tests a lot higher than ODIs, even when compared to other nations, but that doesn't mean ODIs are meaningless to them.

Saying that the players had a cbf attitude throughout this series is also slightly odd imo. Do you honestly think guys like Bopara, Patel, Bairstow, Bresnan, Finn, Dernbach, Borthwick and Meaker, all guys who are essentially fighting for a consistent run at the top level in international limelight, simply can't give a **** about the series and aren't focussed? Pieterson with his aggressive attitude wouldn't want to fail, and neither would a 26 year old captain.

 

[hang on]

it is not about being a success. it is about his record in odis being so good so as to reflect on his test performances and heighten them. the fact is, they do not. but nobody really cares about that since his test record speaks for itself.

let's not break up careers. if he played in his late 30s, he played in his late 30s, and his record during that period should be counted. it is silly to start choosing and picking bits of careers to buttress arguements.

however, even if one were to stop his career conveniently in 88, while his bowling improves, his batting goes down by an 4 runs on average. swings and roundabouts!