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Brett Lee's final Test wicket tally

How many Test wickets will Brett Lee finish with?


  • Total voters
    83

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I've watched a decent amout of cricket so my opinion would be just as good at assessing Lees bowling as you, can we agree on that.
It might be, if you didn't have a strong bias towards Australians and, so it seems, those of your own time.
I have posted Flintoffs views which are the same as mine and you have posted Lillees and several cricket identities have echoed my views so thats about everyone agreeing with me and disagreeing with you. Could you post some quotes from anyone that agrees with you.
"About everyone" actually amounts to 2 people then I really don't feel the need to. You can look all over CW and find hundreds of people who've said Lee wasn't much of a Test bowler, I have no desire to search them out.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'm not disputing this, per se. I just feel that slower bowlers tend to swing it more than quicker bowlers, not that express quicks cannot swing it or fallacies like that.
More, or more often? (Or both?) Either could, conceivably be true - certainly most agree that there's an "optimum pace" for achieving maximum swing in a given delivery, but a) it's still possible to swing it plenty at much higher (or lower) pace than that optimum and b) I've never yet seen any suggestion of a bowler's high pace handicapping his ability to swing a ball - ie, a bowler sending down most of his deliveries at ~125kph managing to swing a ball that a bowler sending down most of his deliveries at ~145kph is finding impossible to.
I dunno about this. Bob Massie has said that trying too hard to swing the ball ("putting too much into it" were his exact words) will ironically result in the ball swinging less. That sounds bizarre, but there you go.
It certainly can hinder you, for all sorts of reasons (sometimes when you, naturally, do everything perfectly then trying harder will disrupt the equilibrium - Massie himself would be a good example of that), but there's no doubt you've got a better chance of achieving swing if you hold the ball seam-up rather than cross-seam - ie, if you have the aim of getting swing rather than if you have no aim of getting swing. And I don't just mean trying on a delivery-by-delivery basis either, I mean putting in the effort in the nets and honing your technique so that you use the seam as best as possible.

Regardless of his pace, a bowler who works on being a high-class swing bowler will be a better one than one who doesn't. Swinging a cricker ball is one of those things that can be almost entirely taught\learnt, if you've got the tutor\work-ethic.
Yep, agreed - though the amount of swing you get does depend on the level of humidity and cloud.
Humidity and cloud certainly helps, but top-quality swing bowlers with a good-quality ball can achieve clear-air turbulance on the driest, sunniest days. There are almost no conditions that can stop the ball swinging - though a bad cricket-ball certainly can. But there are plenty of conditions that can make it difficult\impossible to seam\cut\turn the ball.
 
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Craig

World Traveller
The quote was from Flintoff who played against Lee and he is not Australian.

I know it is an opportunity to run down another Australian but its just not Lillee that made the statement.
So the opinion of Flintoff represents all of world cricket? BTW I'm not Australian either.
 

DaRick

State Vice-Captain
More, or more often? (Or both?)
A bit of both, truth be told - those some slower bowlers don't swing it all that much (i.e - Stuart Clark) whereas some faster ones do (i.e - Fleming).

Having an action conducive to swinging the ball helps (an open chest apparently results in less swing), of course. But where two bowlers have perfect actions (an impossibility, but bear with me ;)), I'm inclined to believe that the slower bowler will swing it more.

Either could, conceivably be true - certainly most agree that there's an "optimum pace" for achieving maximum swing in a given delivery, but a) it's still possible to swing it plenty at much higher (or lower) pace than that optimum and b) I've never yet seen any suggestion of a bowler's high pace handicapping his ability to swing a ball - ie, a bowler sending down most of his deliveries at ~125kph managing to swing a ball that a bowler sending down most of his deliveries at ~145kph is finding impossible to.
Well again, I'm not trying to argue that express quicks cannot swing the ball - merely that a slower bowler with an identical action will swing it more (maybe because the ball spends more time in the air).

It certainly can hinder you, for all sorts of reasons (sometimes when you, naturally, do everything perfectly then trying harder will disrupt the equilibrium - Massie himself would be a good example of that), but there's no doubt you've got a better chance of achieving swing if you hold the ball seam-up rather than cross-seam - ie, if you have the aim of getting swing rather than if you have no aim of getting swing. And I don't just mean trying on a delivery-by-delivery basis either, I mean putting in the effort in the nets and honing your technique so that you use the seam as best as possible.
Well most certainly, action and seam position are important when determining how much you'll swing the ball - but Massie's point was that having all of that (as he most obviously did) and bowling too fast ("putting too much into it") will result in less swing than otherwise. There will still be some swing, but not as much as you'd probably like.

Regardless of his pace, a bowler who works on being a high-class swing bowler will be a better one than one who doesn't. Swinging a cricker ball is one of those things that can be almost entirely taught\learnt, if you've got the tutor\work-ethic.
Mitchell Johnson seems to disagree. He goes from perfect seam to cross seam on a whim, which is annoying. In other words, he seems to learn it and has the requisite work ethic, but he cannot consistently apply his knowledge.

Humidity and cloud certainly helps, but top-quality swing bowlers with a good-quality ball can achieve clear-air turbulance on the driest, sunniest days. There are almost no conditions that can stop the ball swinging - though a bad cricket-ball certainly can. But there are plenty of conditions that can make it difficult\impossible to seam\cut\turn the ball.
As Chris Old et. al will tell you, swinging the ball is rather difficult on dry, sunny days - and he was good at moving the ball! I admit that I don't see how that's significantly different to, say, finding it hard to cut/seam the ball in some conditions.

EDIT: Actually, Chris Old was adept at using both seam and swing. Heh.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
A bit of both, truth be told - those some slower bowlers don't swing it all that much (i.e - Stuart Clark) whereas some faster ones do (i.e - Fleming).

Having an action conducive to swinging the ball helps (an open chest apparently results in less swing), of course. But where two bowlers have perfect actions (an impossibility, but bear with me ;)), I'm inclined to believe that the slower bowler will swing it more.
More - yes, possibly. That "more" amounting to one doing it lots and another hardly doing it at all - no, I don't believe so.
Well again, I'm not trying to argue that express quicks cannot swing the ball - merely that a slower bowler with an identical action will swing it more (maybe because the ball spends more time in the air).
Yeah, as I say, that has something going for it - as I mentioned in my previous post, plenty of people, who have studied the art of swing far more extensively than me, seem to believe that there is an "optimum" pace for the most acute degree of swing.
Well most certainly, action and seam position are important when determining how much you'll swing the ball - but Massie's point was that having all of that (as he most obviously did) and bowling too fast ("putting too much into it") will result in less swing than otherwise. There will still be some swing, but not as much as you'd probably like.
Often trying to bowl too fast - or indeed trying too hard to do anything - will disrupt an equilibrium that has occurred naturally by coincidence.
Mitchell Johnson seems to disagree. He goes from perfect seam to cross seam on a whim, which is annoying. In other words, he seems to learn it and has the requisite work ethic, but he cannot consistently apply his knowledge.
Johnson is one whose case has long left me baffled. I simply cannot understand how he can clearly be fully in control of what he's doing - something almost anyone can keep control of having worked as hard as he clearly has at it - then lose that control at a moment's notice, and then gain it again at another.

Guess there are just exceptions to every rule. Almost every batsman has required to have a mixture of nervousness and anticipation before an innings in order to succeed - Graham Gooch never felt remotely nervous; Nasser Hussain never felt anything but. Yet both were able to succeed plenty.
As Chris Old et. al will tell you, swinging the ball is rather difficult on dry, sunny days - and he was good at moving the ball! I admit that I don't see how that's significantly different to, say, finding it hard to cut/seam the ball in some conditions.

EDIT: Actually, Chris Old was adept at using both seam and swing. Heh.
I've grown-up watching Darren Gough, Andrew Caddick, Dominic Cork et al swing the ball no less in some of the sunniest summers on UK record (1994, 1995 and 1996) as they did in damper ones (2000, 1998, 2002). So my experiences lead me to disagree - if others' experiences lead them to believe a different thing to me, as my lecturer would say, "that's OK".
 
So the opinion of Flintoff represents all of world cricket? BTW I'm not Australian either.
You are not keeping up here Craig, Richard represents the opinion of all world cricket.

BTW my condolences on not being Australian. The lottery of life can be cruel sometimes.
 

DaRick

State Vice-Captain
More - yes, possibly. That "more" amounting to one doing it lots and another hardly doing it at all - no, I don't believe so.
Based on me not asserting that "express quicks can't swing the ball", I think we agree, but the difference is notable.

Can't really argue with the rest of what you've said.
 

Matt79

Hall of Fame Member
Not taking away from the bloke. I'll write a proper post on him when a official announcement thread pops up. I just take issue with the idea he'll figure
in the ODI team again.
As if he's going to be selected again in any format. Sorry Brett, you've been a great servant, but times have moved on and your body has failed you.
Love Binga. No idea what Matt is talking about ftr, can still see him playing at least 20/20s for a bit yet.
sure you, and many others, would. My point is that I think Lee, and some others, are in a bit of denial regarding his chances of regaining sufficient fitness to make it back into the squad. Unless they're going to rush him back in without him demonstrating he can stay fit for more than 2 ODI games in a row. And given the bowling options that have emerged since he left the team - not just Mitch, but Bollinger, Harris, McKay or even Siddle, who's probably the weakest ODI bowler of that lot, rushing him back in that way would be unfair and silly.

I love the guy too, but I think physically he's shot. I hope he prooves me wrong. I'd rather Tait in the T20s ATM anyway.
Sad to say, but with another injury set-back all but ruling him out of the T20 WC, looks like I might have been right after all. He's at the wrong end of his career to be getting injuries that knock him out for a couple of months.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Looked a poor facsimilie of himself in the last IPL game of his I saw, tbh. Suspect Matt is right here. When the end comes for quicks it can be brutally swift, can't it? This time two years back he was (arguably) the best seamer in the world.
 

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