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Selection errors tally thread

Uppercut

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Look at Monty's record this season, and in every test he's played in the last year, and in every test he's played on a pitch similar to the Cardiff one in his career. If England felt he was going to take any wickets, they're ****ing stupid. If they didn't then they should have played an extra batsman. Bad decision either way.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Like it or not, no-one had any reason to suspect either would bowl as well as they have done. Anyone who claims they did is lying.

And no, no-one deserves the slightest credit for either Hilfenhaus or Hauritz bowling well and reasonably respectively than the bowlers themselves.

Still, not many are going to accept that no selector has the power to look into the future, so there's little point me wasting my time arguing the matter with said minded people.
Like it or not, the selection of Hilfenhaus was a master-stroke that took a lot of b8lls to pull off. To drop a bowler who is on ranked one of the top 5 test bowlers in the world for an unproven bowler like Hilfenhaus might not have seemed like the right decision at first, but given the conditions that we got at Cardiff it was very plausible that Clark would have been rendered ineffective.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
Like it or not, the selection of Hilfenhaus was a master-stroke that took a lot of b8lls to pull off. To drop a bowler who is on ranked one of the top 5 test bowlers in the world for an unproven bowler like Hilfenhaus might not have seemed like the right decision at first, but given the conditions that we got at Cardiff it was very plausible that Clark would have been rendered ineffective.
That's not how it works in Richard's world though. There's no such thing as a master-stroke. It's just an error that came off. It remains in the error tally nonetheless.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Interesting that you somehow get to see Aussie Domestic cricket rather regularly...
I don't, but I do take note of it. In that, I read scorecards and read what people write.

What's more, domestic cricket isn't the only cricket Australians play.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Like it or not, the selection of Hilfenhaus was a master-stroke that took a lot of b8lls to pull off. To drop a bowler who is on ranked one of the top 5 test bowlers in the world for an unproven bowler like Hilfenhaus might not have seemed like the right decision at first, but given the conditions that we got at Cardiff it was very plausible that Clark would have been rendered ineffective.
It's also very possible that he would've been rendered effective. People are essentially saying "Hilfenhaus bowled well and Clark might not have bowled well so the decision was the right one". Which, clearly, makes as little sense as the notion that selectors know how someone is going to bowl.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Richard's becoming a parody of himself now, "no-one had any reason to suspect either would bowl as well as they have done." What crap.
Actually it isn't. Read the posts of every single person at the time the game started. The number of people expecting Hilfenhaus and Hauritz to bowl well could be numbered approximately zero. Ergo, it makes perfect sense to say that no-one had reason to suspect it - because they didn't. Evidence all pointed in the other direction. Now that hindsight can be used, and we know that something happened which there was little indication was going to happen, we can be wise after the event.
He pre-supposes his own correctness and then doggedly refuses to accept that actually he might've been wrong, despite the overwhelming weight of evidence to the contrary.
There's no evidence at all about how Clark would have bowled on that deck - because he didn't bowl on it. Ergo, I, or anyone else, cannot be and am not wrong in supposing that he could have bowled better than Hilfenhaus.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I absolutely can't stand Hauritz. I mean in the first innings he gets smacked around by Swann and Anderson, and hell they even reverse sweep him (that has to be a insult to Hauritz) and yet in both innings he ends up with reasonable figures and his Test stats are not that bad. I wish Australia were touring India so they could pick him, and Sehwag, Gambhir, SRT, Laxman, and Dhoni can hit him into the stands on a regular basis.
Haaa, real talk yo...
 

tooextracool

International Coach
It's also very possible that he would've been rendered effective. People are essentially saying "Hilfenhaus bowled well and Clark might not have bowled well so the decision was the right one". Which, clearly, makes as little sense as the notion that selectors know how someone is going to bowl.
No one, not even the selectors, know for sure how anyone is going to bowl. The bottom line was that Hilfenhaus was a conditions related selection, which involved thoughtful thinking because in terms of percentages, the Australian selectors knew that he was more likely to do better than Clark given Clark's recent appalling performances on the slower tracks.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
People are actually forgetting that Hilfenhaus was the man in possession - not Clark, so did Clark really deserve to be selected?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No one, not even the selectors, know for sure how anyone is going to bowl. The bottom line was that Hilfenhaus was a conditions related selection, which involved thoughtful thinking because in terms of percentages, the Australian selectors knew that he was more likely to do better than Clark given Clark's recent appalling performances on the slower tracks.
Personally I don't happen to think that Clark's inability to run through the likes of Gambhir, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Laxman and Ganguly in considerable heat really relates to how good a job he could do on England's line-up, however similar the surface.

I saw at the time and see no reason now why Clark could not have bowled well and been effective on that deck. Hilfenhaus is clearly a decent bowler but bowled poorly in the first two Tests in SA on helpful decks (as well as poorly on a less helpful one in the final match). He had certainly not earned the faith shown in him, even though it's to his full credit that he bowled very well when given that faith.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
People are actually forgetting that Hilfenhaus was the man in possession - not Clark, so did Clark really deserve to be selected?
If Clark had been fit to tour South Africa in 2008/09 does anyone seriously believe Hilfenhaus would've played?

Being the man in possession only applies if someone has actually been picked as a first-choice. Same story as with being dropped. You can't be dropped if you've not been picked as a first-choice; you can't be the man in possession over someone if you only played when they were injured.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
People are actually forgetting that Hilfenhaus was the man in possession - not Clark, so did Clark really deserve to be selected?
He was the main in posession just by the fact he played that last test, not because his performances guaranteed him a spot in the first test though. Hifly was always seen a 5th choice coming into the series, Lee & Clark where always battling to partner Johnson/Siddle.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Personally I don't happen to think that Clark's inability to run through the likes of Gambhir, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Laxman and Ganguly in considerable heat really relates to how good a job he could do on England's line-up, however similar the surface.

I saw at the time and see no reason now why Clark could not have bowled well and been effective on that deck. Hilfenhaus is clearly a decent bowler but bowled poorly in the first two Tests in SA on helpful decks (as well as poorly on a less helpful one in the final match). He had certainly not earned the faith shown in him, even though it's to his full credit that he bowled very well when given that faith.
Disagree slightly here. Firstly he didn't poorly in the first 2 test in SA. He wasn't fanatisc - but was solid enough. His figures like Lee in 2005, dont reflect how well he bowled.

Not all bowlers start fantastic in their first few tests, Hilfenhaus has clearly gotten better each test he has played so far.

He definately showed enough, that if a scenario like what occured with Lee going into the first test, that he could have been thrown into a test & bowl well in English conditons. But again to keep up my reduancy, the argument really should not be Clark vs Hilfenahaus. Hilfy always should have been replacing Lee & Clark should have played ahead of Haurtiz.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Personally I don't happen to think that Clark's inability to run through the likes of Gambhir, Sehwag, Tendulkar, Laxman and Ganguly in considerable heat really relates to how good a job he could do on England's line-up, however similar the surface.
From reports Clark was ineffective and generally struggled to create much of an impact on a similar pitch down in Worcester. Its not a question about considerable heat, FFS they toured India in October when its hardly summer, its the fact that he could have bowled 2000 overs and still struggled to get India out.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
From reports Clark was ineffective and generally struggled to create much of an impact on a similar pitch down in Worcester.
I watched most of that match and he bowled damn well and was extremely unlucky to avoid picking-up a decent haul. That's why I maintain that the only fair reason for his exclusion would be if he lacked fitness.
Its not a question about considerable heat, FFS they toured India in October when its hardly summer
I'm no expert, but I've always had the impression that India in October is warmer than England in July if not by as much as India in July is warmer than England in July.
its the fact that he could have bowled 2000 overs and still struggled to get India out.
But as I say - India's batting is far stronger than England's, and also has less of a weakness against the nagging type of bowling.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
I watched most of that match and he bowled damn well and was extremely unlucky to avoid picking-up a decent haul. That's why I maintain that the only fair reason for his exclusion would be if he lacked fitness.
Seems quite strange then that the only wickets he took were a couple of lower order wickets. Even the cricinfo authors werent convinced: "However, Stuart Clark has some doubts, especially if slow and low pitches like this one are on offer around the country over the next two months. Like Johnson, he was unable to break through and tried not to grow frustrated at his lack of penetration, bounce or seam movement. Ponting loaded his fielders straight and until Lee started steaming the slip cordon was heavily trimmed."


I'm no expert, but I've always had the impression that India in October is warmer than England in July if not by as much as India in July is warmer than England in July.
Which is irrelevant because Clark grew up and played cricket in Australia not England.
And I can tell you for certain from experience that Bangalore in October (which was where he played the first test in India) is almost certainly not much warmer and perhaps cooler than a summer day in London.

If he cant handle bowling near the winter season in India, then one has to question whether he is in the right profession.

But as I say - India's batting is far stronger than England's, and also has less of a weakness against the nagging type of bowling.
You cant really be very nagging, if the wicket keeper is standing up to you and you dont have the requisite skills to get past the outside edge. Me and my grandpa could have scored runs against Clark in India, it has nothing to do with the quality of India's batting lineup.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Odd, based on the all the series in India over the years. I have thought touring India between Sept-Dec is much hotter than Feb-Arp...
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Odd, based on the all the series in India over the years. I have thought touring India between Sept-Dec is much hotter than Feb-Arp...
March, April and May are usually the warmest and most humid months of the year. Most schools in India have their summer breaks between March and May.
 

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