*Unofficial* England ODI team thread

[Richard]

sounds like a plan to me

If it were followed, all would be good. Sadly, as I say, England's selectors just don't (and haven't for a while - encompassing more than one selection committee) have a clue what makes a good one-day cricketer.

lets not nitpick, point is he succeeded when more obvious talents did not.

Trescothick does have an obvious talent for one-day batting though. It just took quite a while for that talent to be realised at a level above schoolboy cricket. There aren't really all that many players of the last 8 years who have had obvious talent. Most of them I could've told you long before they made the ODI debuts that their chances of success were slim to zero.

the county game could still be a better breeding ground, do they still send out plenty of a-tours ?

Not really.

 

[analyst]

In case you haven't noticed, all those players are excellent Test players. And MSP is certainly a very poor ODI player.

The point is not about who but what game-form. Tests are overwhelmingly the preferred game-form in this country, and while I don't mind that at all ODIs are un-favoured far too much for my liking, and it's not remotely surprising that England have had so few good one-day players in recent years.

Well Pietersen and Flintoff are exceptional test players for England but they also remain their best ODI players. Flintoff's record with the bat and ball proves this, most media around the world recognise his talent in the shorter format.

As for Monty, I think his career just like Cook's has not yet to start in ODI's, given a head selector and captain who understands the proper need, I figure both players will be in their thoughts.

 

[tooextracool]

I can sort of see the idea of Cook being successful in ODIs in the future, however Panesar is just an absolute no-no. ODI cricket made him a worse test match bowler as it turned out, and in a game where cricketers need to be somewhat skilled in at least 2 out of the 3 skill Panesar is skilled in about 0.

 

[analyst]

I think you ll find that was Duncan Fletcher at the end of his coaching career who impressed upon him the idea of bowling flat which was what Ashley Giles was great at, he ruined Monty's great natural flight variations.

 

[tooextracool]

I think you ll find that was Duncan Fletcher at the end of his coaching career who impressed upon him the idea of bowling flat which was what Ashley Giles was great at, he ruined Monty's great natural flight variations.

Yes I am well aware of the influence Duncan has had on him, although he wasnt particularly skillful at using flight or varying his pace even when he first showed up to play cricket for England so I think that is somewhat exaggerated.

 

[analyst]

You underestimate Duncan's impact at the end and Panesar's talent also.

 

[Richard]

Well Pietersen and Flintoff are exceptional test players for England but they also remain their best ODI players. Flintoff's record with the bat and ball proves this, most media around the world recognise his talent in the shorter format.

The point is that they could be complete duds in ODIs and I doubt they'd be one iota less admired in this country than they are.

As for Monty, I think his career just like Cook's has not yet to start in ODI's, given a head selector and captain who understands the proper need, I figure both players will be in their thoughts.

I have more faith in Cook's ability to be ODI-class than I have in MSP's, and also think Cook is closer right now. However, clearly at the current time neither are and picking either now (MSP especially, given that unlike in Cook's case there are clearly, obviously superior options) would be a backward step and completely unhelpful to either player.

 

[aussie]

Very surprised to see people actually seeing any hope in Cook as a future OD batsman in this advancing period of ODI cricket. Especially with England still scratching around for an opener who can take advantage of the power-plays, he is still wayyyy to one-dimensional.

 

[Richard]

The hope is that in time he can expand his repetoire.

I hope he can, but I'm certainly not going to be expecting it. Poor stays poor more often than poor becomes good, especially once the age of 23 has been reached and the player is from over here.

 

[Woodster]

Very surprised to see people actually seeing any hope in Cook as a future OD batsman in this advancing period of ODI cricket. Especially with England still scratching around for an opener who can take advantage of the power-plays, he is still wayyyy to one-dimensional.

I think a specialist opener is a must, especially in English conditions where the ball zips around. In India perhaps not as much with it generally being straight up and down.

 

[analyst]

Richard, I know being an English cricket fan is a hard job but you are extremely cynical about cricket in general it seems.

 

[Athlai]

Cook is a good player just find another opener who can push the strike a bit and a number three who can do the same. Back your team instead of changing it constantly, so many players come and go from the English team it's ridiculous.

 

[aussie]

The hope is that in time he can expand his repetoire.

I hope he can, but I'm certainly not going to be expecting it. Poor stays poor more often than poor becomes good, especially once the age of 23 has been reached and the player is from over here.

Uselss hope. If Vaughan couldn't make & he actually had an attacking game. Expecting Cook to start doing that is wishful thinking.

I think a specialist opener is a must, especially in English conditions where the ball zips around. In India perhaps not as much with it generally being straight up and down.

Its too negligible for me. The game has advanced too much now that even if the ball is moving no side will be seriously thinking of negotiating of cosolidating at the start of an innings.

I'm only down with Cook opening if he has a partner who can take advantage of the powerplays. But ATM, i don't see anyone of that ilk & i fear we will be having this debate about England ODI openers come the 2011 WC..

 

[four_or_six]

Cook should be released whenever possible to play one-day or T20 cricket for Essex. That the ECB has rested him from some of these games is a total farce if they/he actually have limited overs ambitions.

 

[Woodster]

I'm only down with Cook opening if he has a partner who can take advantage of the powerplays. But ATM, i don't see anyone of that ilk & i fear we will be having this debate about England ODI openers come the 2011 WC..

I've already nailed my hat to the Rob Key camp alongside Ali Cook.

 

[tooextracool]

Very surprised to see people actually seeing any hope in Cook as a future OD batsman in this advancing period of ODI cricket. Especially with England still scratching around for an opener who can take advantage of the power-plays, he is still wayyyy to one-dimensional.

At not even 24, its hard to write off someone from odi cricket. He doesnt have the tools to succeed at the moment, but one should also remember that he had a particularly successful run in the under-19 world cup so he could very well go on to get better, but yes at the moment he should not be in the side.

 

[Richard]

Richard, I know being an English cricket fan is a hard job but you are extremely cynical about cricket in general it seems.

I think "realistic and not stupidly over-optimistic" is a better description TBH.

 

[Richard]

Back your team instead of changing it constantly, so many players come and go from the English team it's ridiculous.

It's no use backing poor-quality players, I've said it 100 times but you can't turn a poor player into a good one just by continuing to pick him. The trouble is that for the last 7 years the selectors have simply picked so many woeful players who should never have gotten near the side then realised how terrible they were (which they should have done via their performances at domestic level, without needing to test them at international) that they've had to get shot sharpish. Trouble has often been that 1 innings has convinced some important people that the player has got some potential, so they've stayed around the fringes of the side for a year or so.

What England's selectors need to do is realise who the best players are, not give longer runs to the poor ones they mistakenly pick. Every now and then that (a long run given to a poor player) has happened - look at the cases of Geraint Jones and James Anderson. As you can see, it hasn't helped in the slightest.

 

[Richard]

Uselss hope. If Vaughan couldn't make & he actually had an attacking game. Expecting Cook to start doing that is wishful thinking.

It's not about having an attacking\defensive game, plenty of (well, more than a few) Test-class strokeplayers have failed to be any good at domestic or international OD cricket. Cook is never likely to be someone who scores terribly quickly in Tests, but it's far from impossible that he could adapt his game to work the ball around in ODIs. I don't want him to do this at the expense of his Test game, but I've seen players manage such a thing before.

 

[Richard]

Its too negligible for me. The game has advanced too much now that even if the ball is moving no side will be seriously thinking of negotiating of cosolidating at the start of an innings.

Which means that if the ball does move most sides will be 20-2 quite often. No amount of "advancing of the game" will change the fact that the bowler controls it if he's got a ball that moves. Against a good opening bowler, opening batsmen need to have a decent technique to combat the bowling and need to settle for less than they otherwise would at the start of the innings.