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South Africa's best cricketer since re-admission

South Africa's best cricketer since re-admission


  • Total voters
    71

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
A real one:

1. Gary Kirsten
2. Graeme Smith
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Darryl Cullinan
5. Hansie Cronje (c)
6. Brian McMillan
7. Mark Boucher
8. Shaun Pollock
9. Dale Steyn
10. Allan Donald
11. Makhaya Ntini

Hansie might be a bit controversial, but despite his sins I think he was the best captain SA has had since isolation.
Interesting, we have only 1 difference. Steyn isnt included in mine as he is still very unproven (despite a great least 12 months) and I dont see the need for 7 seamers.

1. Smith
2. Gibbs
3. Kirsten
4. Kallis
5. Cullinan
6. Cronje
7. McMillan
8. Boucher
9. Pollock
10. Donald
11. Ntini

Lots of seam bowling and tons of batting. Obvious weakness is the lack of a spinner but impossible to find a place for one. Kallis gets to bat at his prefered #4 and I love seeing Cullinan in that oder, one of the most underrated batsmen. Few have scored 'hard' runs like he did.
 

Matt79

Global Moderator
Difficult question.

As far as single-role players are concerned, Donald was a better bowler for me than anyone else and also a better bowler than anyone who's held a bat is batsman. But it's impossible to look past the all-round contributions of Kallis and Pollock.

As to who's better out of Kallis and Pollock... an impossible question really. I've always been inclined to go for Pollock, but there really is virtually nothing in it.
I assume you're talking amongst post-readmission South African players only, because saying Donald is better as a bowler than Bradman, or even Tendulkar was as a batsman would be (being restrained) a ridiculous statement.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
An average of 27.33 is hardly 'less than stellar,' it's still damn good. Certainly quite better than Donald's (a touch over 31).
27.33 is pretty poor for someone as good as McGrath. It shows that the SAfricans fairly conclusively got the better of him in all bar a handful of games. Same as Donald and Australia.

In any case, neither figure is remotely important for either bowler - it's more a case of 27 (Donald) and 25 (McGrath), if you exclude games when they were no good against anyone. And closer inspection, as I say, shows that mostly both bowlers only succeeded when the going was easy anyway. EG, Donald's best performance against Aus was in a dead-rubber, McGrath's best against SA in a game where SA played worse than Bangladesh have probably ever played. They both put-in the odd superb performance, as bowlers as good as them were bound to, but both were far below their best against their respective opposition.

However, both conquered even better batting sides than their opponents - the Indians, and in Donald's case the West Indians - and hence these can be fairly safely overlooked and both can still be considered two of the best seamers of all-time.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Interesting, we have only 1 difference. Steyn isnt included in mine as he is still very unproven (despite a great least 12 months) and I dont see the need for 7 seamers.

1. Smith
2. Gibbs
3. Kirsten
4. Kallis
5. Cullinan
6. Cronje
7. McMillan
8. Boucher
9. Pollock
10. Donald
11. Ntini

Lots of seam bowling and tons of batting. Obvious weakness is the lack of a spinner but impossible to find a place for one. Kallis gets to bat at his prefered #4 and I love seeing Cullinan in that oder, one of the most underrated batsmen. Few have scored 'hard' runs like he did.
Would you really have Gibbs opening instead of Kirsten? Given Kirsten was an opener near enough all his life IIRR and Gibbs only became one at, what, 25?

Come to that, there must surely be better middle-order batsmen than Gibbs? Rhodes maybe?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I assume you're talking amongst post-readmission South African players only, because saying Donald is better as a bowler than Bradman, or even Tendulkar was as a batsman would be (being restrained) a ridiculous statement.
Was talking post-readmission SAfrican players, obviously, but I think you could also extend it to all SAfricans at all times.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Would you really have Gibbs opening instead of Kirsten? Given Kirsten was an opener near enough all his life IIRR and Gibbs only became one at, what, 25?

Come to that, there must surely be better middle-order batsmen than Gibbs? Rhodes maybe?
It wouldn't be a post re-admission SA team without a slightly questionable decision on who opens the batting though. :p
 

Uppercut

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A real one:

1. Gary Kirsten
2. Graeme Smith
3. Jacques Kallis
4. Darryl Cullinan
5. Hansie Cronje (c)
6. Brian McMillan
7. Mark Boucher
8. Shaun Pollock
9. Dale Steyn
10. Allan Donald
11. Makhaya Ntini

Hansie might be a bit controversial, but despite his sins I think he was the best captain SA has had since isolation.
Yeah, no Hansie wasn't a good captain. One of the absolute fundamentals to being a good captain is to, y'know, not lose on purpose for money.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It wouldn't be a post re-admission SA team without a slightly questionable decision on who opens the batting though. :p
Indeed. 8-)

(Just in case anyone was wondering - Rolleyes firmly directed at SAfrican selectors, not Cribb)
 

NUFAN

Y no Afghanistan flag
I'm almost certain that AB De Villiers will be in this side within the next 3 or 4 years.
 

andyc

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
In any case, neither figure is remotely important for either bowler - it's more a case of 27 (Donald) and 25 (McGrath), if you exclude games when they were no good against anyone.
8-)
The idea of a cricketing career is that you go through ups and downs; that's what separates the good players from the bad, in that their peaks last a lot longer and a lot more frequent then their troughs. You simply can't just remove a few games because they'd been going badly for a while, that's just how cricket works. When you're doing your 'in-depth' analysis of someone like Matthew Hayden, do you remove his run of poor form from the end of the 2004 Sri Lanka series to the end of the 2005 Ashes, or do you conveniently put that down to him being 'found out?'

And closer inspection, as I say, shows that mostly both bowlers only succeeded when the going was easy anyway. EG, Donald's best performance against Aus was in a dead-rubber, McGrath's best against SA in a game where SA played worse than Bangladesh have probably ever played. They both put-in the odd superb performance, as bowlers as good as them were bound to, but both were far below their best against their respective opposition.
Maybe that's because Australia, and McGrath's bowling, had more than a little to do with them apparently playing badly. A team getting thrashed is normally somewhat down to poor playing, but it's more so because they're playing against an opposition that's simply playing better than they are. Australia has bad days against substandard teams but they still come away with wins.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
8-)
The idea of a cricketing career is that you go through ups and downs; that's what separates the good players from the bad, in that their peaks last a lot longer and a lot more frequent then their troughs. You simply can't just remove a few games because they'd been going badly for a while, that's just how cricket works.
Analysis of a cricketer's career is all about that - you've got to get rid of odd little irrelevant matters, because some of them make bigger impacts on certain things than others, pull things away from the real picture more. McGrath until the Fifth Test in 1994/95 was nowhere near a Test-class bowler, so it's unfair to suggest the fact that some of his games in that time happened to be against SA means anything as to any later failures against SA. Likewise, it's utterly ridiculous to suggest those last 3 Tests in 2001/02 mean a thing where Donald's record against Aus is concerned, because he'd have been terrible in those games whoever they were against. He'd just lost it - his body had given-up on him.

However, this pushes Donald's average up by 4, it pushes McGrath's average up by 2. But both are equally irrelevant, as neither are relevant to the bowlers McGrath and Donald were for the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of their careers. And I don't know about you, but when I go looking at bowlers as good as they, it's the majority, not the tiny minority, that I care about.
When you're doing your 'in-depth' analysis of someone like Matthew Hayden, do you remove his run of poor form from the end of the 2004 Sri Lanka series to the end of the 2005 Ashes, or do you conveniently put that down to him being 'found out?'
Yes, indeed, batsmen can be found-out - bowlers can't, and certainly bowlers as good as Donald and McGrath can't. Doesn't mean every bad run a batsman has is due to such a thing, of course, but Hayden was

Obviously, though, if you want to find the pattern of most of Hayden's career 2001/02-current-day, you'd remove 2004/05 and 2005. And yes, I would do such a thing.
Maybe that's because Australia, and McGrath's bowling, had more than a little to do with them apparently playing badly. A team getting thrashed is normally somewhat down to poor playing, but it's more so because they're playing against an opposition that's simply playing better than they are. Australia has bad days against substandard teams but they still come away with wins.
That's because Australia don't generally tend to go anywhere near as bad as SA went that game - and it started long, long before McGrath picked-up the ball. Seriously, I don't know whether you watched that Wanderers 2001/02 game, but it was about the worst demonstration of how not to play cricket that you could wish to see.
 

Goughy

Hall of Fame Member
Would you really have Gibbs opening instead of Kirsten? Given Kirsten was an opener near enough all his life IIRR and Gibbs only became one at, what, 25?

Come to that, there must surely be better middle-order batsmen than Gibbs? Rhodes maybe?
IIRC the times Kirsten batted at 3 he did well and Gibbs always did better opening than not.

Its an easy answer really as it fits all.
 

tooextracool

International Coach
Interesting, we have only 1 difference. Steyn isnt included in mine as he is still very unproven (despite a great least 12 months) and I dont see the need for 7 seamers.

1. Smith
2. Gibbs
3. Kirsten
4. Kallis
5. Cullinan
6. Cronje
7. McMillan
8. Boucher
9. Pollock
10. Donald
11. Ntini

Lots of seam bowling and tons of batting. Obvious weakness is the lack of a spinner but impossible to find a place for one. Kallis gets to bat at his prefered #4 and I love seeing Cullinan in that oder, one of the most underrated batsmen. Few have scored 'hard' runs like he did.
I think Id much rather have Fanie DeVilliers in the side than Ntini tbh but other than that the side is good. One of the problems with that side(as was the case for much of the 90s) though is that there is not just no spinner, there isnt even a part time spinner. That of course meant that if the ball turned there was nothing SA could do to exploit or if they needed to rush through their overs there was again nothing they could do about it.
As far as Cullinan is concerned, many people mentioned that the SA side from the 90s didnt have many world class batsmen, well Cullinan was world class. Its just unfortunate that his performance against Warne took that sheen away from the rest of his career.
 

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