The Woes of NZC

[HeathDavisSpeed]

I agree, I also think he was a bloody good player at the start of his career and whatever Heath says, he had alot of ability. When he lost form however, he was persisted with for far too long ahead of others who were smashing the door down in domestic cricket.

Pah. To paraphrase a greater person than I, "Class is permanent, form is temporary". I never saw anything in Hamish Marshall to suggest that he was anything other than mediocre. He hit a vein of form when he first got selected, Bracewell said "Look how good I am for picking someone with such an uninspiring first class record who can succeed at international level" and then persisted with him to try and prove his detractors wrong.

 

[Bahnz]

Pah. To paraphrase a greater person than I, "Class is permanent, form is temporary". I never saw anything in Hamish Marshall to suggest that he was anything other than mediocre. He hit a vein of form when he first got selected, Bracewell said "Look how good I am for picking someone with such an uninspiring first class record who can succeed at international level" and then persisted with him to try and prove his detractors wrong.

But it wasn't like his good run of form was only for a couple of games. He was excellent in both the 2003/04 and the 2004/05 seasons, and had successes against Pakistan, South Africa, England, Sri Lanka, and in particular Australia. If it was just a fluke with no basis in talent, then it was one of the longer and more impressive flukes in New Zealand cricket.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

True to some extent. Here's his list of test innings:

40* - - - 1 D 3rd Test v SA in SA 2000/01 at Johannesburg [1522]
69 - - - 1 W 2nd Test v BD in BD 2004/05 at Chittagong (MAA) [1717]
146 - - - 1 L 1st Test v Aus in NZ 2004/05 at Christchurch [1739]
22 - - - 3
18 - - - 2 2nd Test v Aus in NZ 2004/05 at Wellington [1742]
0 - - - 3
76 - - - 1 L 3rd Test v Aus in NZ 2004/05 at Auckland [1744]
7 - - - 3
160 - - - 1 D 1st Test v SL in NZ 2004/05 at Napier [1746]
6 - - - 3
6 - - - 2 W 2nd Test v SL in NZ 2004/05 at Wellington [1748]
20 - - - 1 W 1st Test v Zim in Zim 2005/06 at Harare [1759]
13 - - - 2 W 2nd Test v Zim in Zim 2005/06 at Bulawayo [1761].
11 - - - 1 W 1st Test v WI in NZ 2005/06 at Auckland [1787]
1 - - - 3
3 - - - 2 W 2nd Test v WI in NZ 2005/06 at Wellington [1790]
23* - - - 4
6 - - - 2 - DNB 0 0 1 L 1st Test v SA in SA 2005/06 at Centurion [1798]
25 - - - 4


This list suggests to me that he was only in form between October 2004 and April 2005. Those failures against the Zimbabwean bowling attack of Streak, Mahwire, Mpofu, Cremer and Dabengwa really were poor.

I haven't looked at his ODI stats, but his 'record' in tests is superior to that in ODIs by a considerable distance. To me, the stats support my view that he had a temporary (albeit very rich) vein of form.

 

[Bahnz]

I haven't looked at his ODI stats, but his 'record' in tests is superior to that in ODIs by a considerable distance. To me, the stats support my view that he had a temporary (albeit very rich) vein of form.

His ODI average, from the beginning of his career in october 2003 up to the end of the 2005 season, was about 38. Up until the end of that season he'd been very impressive in both forms of the game since his debut. He then went away played no cricket for 5 months, and came back looking like a completely different player. In my opinion, he needed some time back in the domestic circuit, to sort things out, and if he was to be brought back, it should've been in tests not ODI's. His average for Gloucestershire and ND was nearly 60 during 2006-2007. Yet his list A form had been rubbish. And yet, for some unfathomable reason, not only did the selectors decide to bring him back into the side, but in ODI cricket, where domestically he had shown very little improvement.

 

[whitedazzler]

the way i see it is that nz cricket will continue how it is (crap) unless something is done. we have lost players due to retirement and indian leagues. bowling wise we have got the resources with mills, bond, franklin, gillespie, martin and vettori and patel in the spin department. Back up/youth wise for pace i'd say tim southee for youth, young man but a few odis here and there wouldn't hurt him at all and andre adams, the guy has performed not only in nz but for a few years over in england he's got the expeirence that we need. Back up for spin bowling could only be Nathan McCullum wouldn't it.

batting . . oh god

openers well, jamie how showed his stuff in a couple of odis so there is potiental there, craig cumming got 48* but thats been about it really, michael papps his domestic record is fabulous it doesn't surprise me he struggled in rsa with the fast bouncy pitches for such a short guy and the fact he hadn't played in a while didn't help him either. For other options there are James Marshall - no!, Matthew Bell - well he is in form, he's expeirenced but I doubt the selectors will pick him

Middle Order, matthew sinclair - the guy is a must his record says a lot for him, his problem is he'll get picked for the final match in a series and is expected to perform, I believe he needs to stay in the side consistantly to perform to the standard he's capable off. Ross Taylor - well we all know what this kid can do, I do believe he is a one-day specalist, he's got areas of his game he needs to work on but he'll get there, believe someone called him the next Martin Crowe, see what happens on that front aye. Lou Vincent, one day opener no doubt, test opener nah, I just couldn't see him lasting through a session with a swinging ball. Put him on a flat track and your sweet and he plays spin quite well. Stephen Fleming - well test specalist now, put him at 3 and he will do well with the captaincy off his back it will only do him good. Back up and youth well, take your pick really Neil Broom, Greg Todd, Jesse Ryder all capable players I just hope they arent put against the likes of aussy or rsa to debut against.

Allrounders, Jacob Oram and Scott Styris all capable. Styris needs to bowl a bit more wicket to wicket like Nathan Astle did. No real allrouders in the system I can think off, Grant Elliott perhaps, Ian Robertson from cantab land is pretty good as well apparently.

Keepers - Brendon McCullum that is all. Its stupid to put a guy like hopkins in the odi side at 6 or 7 with an od record like he has, mcglashan would be a better idea personally.

At the end of the day we are playing Bangladesh a team we are going to beat easily so we can afford to put out a slightly weakened side in order to gain expeirence your the younger players.

so heres my pick for the sideh (based on current injuries etc)
test

bell
how
fleming
sinclair
vincent
oram
mccullum
vettori
mills
patel
martin

odi

vincent
mccullum
taylor
sinclair
ryder
styris
oram
adams
vettori
mills
patel

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

James not Jack.

Hamish IMO.

Not buying this identical twin nonsense.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

And yet, for some unfathomable reason, not only did the selectors decide to bring him back into the side, but in ODI cricket, where domestically he had shown very little improvement.

I don't disagree with much of what you've said here. Bracewell by backing his man did him more harm than good in the end - persevering with him to whatever end in ODIs, opening the batting with him in tests. Still, I'm happy to stick with my belief that he was a nothing more than a form player.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I'm a firm believer in the ability of Hamish Marshall. Of course he has amounted, to date, to a mediocre international batsman. However, I think there's a lot to be read into his improvement in first-class cricket (non-Test) after he started playing internationals. Grossly mishandled IMO.

 

[Richard]

Gavin Larsen was a great bowler for the period of cricket he played in..i dont think the dynamics of the game to day would suit such a player...

One of the reasons for the current dynamics of the game is the lack of Larsen-like bowlers. I'm sure Larsen probably would get slogged more often at the current time than he did at the time he played, but he'd still do a damn sight better than most bowlers around currently overall and generally if he did get slogged he'd probably get 2 or 3 wickets.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Keepers - Brendon McCullum that is all. Its stupid to put a guy like hopkins in the odi side at 6 or 7 with an od record like he has, mcglashan would be a better idea personally.

Nah. McGlashan is poor. I'm pretty sure he's shown the extent of his abilities in the internationals he's played so far - I cannot see him scoring an international 50 to be honest. If its not McCullum, its got to be either Hopkins or Griggs.

 

[Richard]

Could someone tell me why there's any serious consideration of McCullum not keeping? As people who I didn't realise were actually 'keepers until recently go, he's damn good, though obviously he's not quite Adam Parore or Ian Smith.

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

Could someone tell me why there's any serious consideration of McCullum not keeping? As people who I didn't realise were actually 'keepers until recently go, he's damn good, though obviously he's not quite Adam Parore or Ian Smith.

No idea Richard. I think everyone's a bit worried that Bracewell might consider using McCullum as a specialist bat. THAT's certainly not outside the realms of possibility - insane though the suggestion may be to anyone with an ounce of sense. Bracewell seems to be blessed with none.

 

[Richard]

Sorry, I always forget Bracewell's involved. Think that's about my 7th or 8th "can someone tell me why...?" question involving New Zealand teams of recent times.

 

[slugger]

One of the reasons for the current dynamics of the game is the lack of Larsen-like bowlers. I'm sure Larsen probably would get slogged more often at the current time than he did at the time he played, but he'd still do a damn sight better than most bowlers around currently overall and generally if he did get slogged he'd probably get 2 or 3 wickets.

"However in the past two seasons opposition batsmen have targeted Larsen, charging down the wicket in a bid to counter his accurate medium-paced deliveries. His RPO has slipped a little but the counter balance has been more wickets."

haha you repeated what was said on his profile page...

 

[Athlai]

Thought McCullum had a wee injury that has kept him from keeping personally.

 

[NZTailender]

NZ could do with an upgraded fitness regime. Our players drop like flies after anything slightly strenuous.

 

[ohtani's jacket]

Why are people so surprised?

It's pretty clear that the "Fleming" era is over... We're gonna struggle just like we did when the Hadlee era ended. At least we have better players *now* than we did then.

 

[Fiery]

Why are people so surprised?

It's pretty clear that the "Fleming" era is over... We're gonna struggle just like we did when the Hadlee era ended. At least we have better players *now* than we did then.

Fleming is still playing

 

[ohtani's jacket]

I meant Fleming's reign as captain, which was a damn good era for NZ cricket.

 

[Smudge]

Could someone tell me why there's any serious consideration of McCullum not keeping? As people who I didn't realise were actually 'keepers until recently go, he's damn good, though obviously he's not quite Adam Parore or Ian Smith.

Can I please dispel the above myth? McCullum has been a wicketkeeper since he was a primary schoolboy.