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John Wright ODI record?

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Which makes about as much sense as quantum muffins, tbh.
It doesn't, it makes perfect sense. I've said this before and much as I may try to keep repetitions to a minumum, it annoys me greatly when people keep saying the exact same thing about me as if I'd never offered a refutal.

Economy-rates are the most important thing in bowling. A bowler with a good economy-rate is a good ODI bowler. Hence, batting against the best bowlers is likely to mean you're going to have to score a bit slower if you want to score at all. If you try to score at 90 per 100 balls, you're not often going to get many. It's only rubbish bowling that will allow you to do this and score heavily.

Hence, someone like Knight, who scored slower and against a better calibre of bowler than Jayasuriya, is a better player than Jayasuriya who scored quicker against a lesser calibre of bowler than Knight. Ditto Gilchrist. And Jayasuriya > Gilchrist, really - he has far more of a "novelty" factor.

Gilchrist and Jayasuriya > Knight when it comes to bashing rubbish bowling. Knight > Jayasuriya and Gilchrist when it comes to scoring against the best attacks. And for me, the latter makes a better batsman than the former.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
I was more referring to the idea that ERs are the most important thing for bowlers, whereas strike rates are relatively unimportant thing for batsmen. They're both opposite sides of the same coin, and it only logically follows that if ER is the only/most important thing for bowlers, that strike rate would be the only/most important thing for batsmen.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
But it's not, for the reasons I just said. SR is important for a batsman - but it cannot be more important than ave, as you can have a SR of 100 and if you only average 20 you're still a useless waste of space.

ERs and bowling-SRs don't work like that - you can have a good ER and not even have a SR ITFP. You can't have a batting-SR without an average, unless your entire career is comprised of not-outs.
 
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shortpitched713

International Captain
But it's not, for the reasons I just said. SR is important for a batsman - but it cannot be more important than ave, as you can have a SR of 100 and if you only average 20 you're still a useless waste of space.
Thats very, very debatable though. Of course you can't have 7 batsmen in the team who all average 20 and strike at 100 because you wouldn't last through the 50 overs (although you would get 140 runs by the 23rd over for your trouble). But if you also have batsmen who can play longer innings then running out of wickets becomes much less of a problem, and the batsman who scores runs quickly, even if he doesn't score so many, becomes much more useful because as long as you survive through the 50 overs the only thing that matters in the end is how quickly you scored.
 
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NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
Vincent is crap in ODIs AFAIC, you know my feelings here. Likewise McCullum. Sure, they've both played some decent knocks but you're bound to if you get enough chances.
Vincent>>>>McCullum and any other opening option we have for ODI's. He's been solid since his recall(s) though his average is punched up by centuries against Zimbabwe and Canada, he still does a job for US, not England not Australia not South Africa not India not Pakistan and not the West Indies where better batsman ARE available, but New Zealand, where he's a good opener for us. Is it settling for a 'crap' player to do a job because there's noone else good enough? Might be, but IMO he's not crap. He's not a Gilchrist or a Trescothick and possibly never will be, but he's our best ODI opener now that Astle and Fleming has retired. He has a job, he's doing it. Don't call him crap again or hands will be thrown young man.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Thats very, very debatable though. Of course you can't have 7 batsmen in the team who all average 20 and strike at 100 because you wouldn't last through the 50 overs (although you would get 140 runs by the 23rd over for your trouble). But if you also have batsmen who can play longer innings then running out of wickets becomes much less of a problem, and the batsman who scores runs quickly, even if he doesn't score so many, becomes much more useful because as long as you survive through the 50 overs the only thing that matters in the end is how quickly you scored.
I'd take someone who averaged 30 at a SR of 80 over said 20-at-100. Every. Single. Time.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Vincent>>>>McCullum and any other opening option we have for ODI's. He's been solid since his recall(s) though his average is punched up by centuries against Zimbabwe and Canada, he still does a job for US, not England not Australia not South Africa not India not Pakistan and not the West Indies where better batsman ARE available, but New Zealand, where he's a good opener for us. Is it settling for a 'crap' player to do a job because there's noone else good enough? Might be, but IMO he's not crap. He's not a Gilchrist or a Trescothick and possibly never will be, but he's our best ODI opener now that Astle and Fleming has retired. He has a job, he's doing it. Don't call him crap again or hands will be thrown young man.
TBH and TBF, he's certainly not been crap since his most recent call after the Astle retirement, far from it, he's been pretty damn decent.

Nonetheless, before this he was awful. Opening, three, middle-order, whatever. Awful.
 

NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
TBH and TBF, he's certainly not been crap since his most recent call after the Astle retirement, far from it, he's been pretty damn decent.

Nonetheless, before this he was awful. Opening, three, middle-order, whatever. Awful.
No, before 2005 he was awful in ODI's, being shuffled around the order. Then he was given another run as opener and did well before hitting bad form and was dropped. Now he's back again and will probably have another run of bad form, get dropped, recalled, good form, bad form, dropped...well, you'll see the cycle.

Opening he averages 33. Not bad by any means. His record is poor in Asia mind.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yet between his recall in late 2005 and his next dropping a year later, he averaged 28.38 against ODI-standard sides (and remember, we're arguing about why I rate him as something, and this is what I base my ratings on), 22.43 as an opener and 40.80 from his 5 innings at three.

His scores conformed no pattern - he didn't start terribly well (scores as an opener of 4, 4, 71, 39, 15, 46).

For me, he's looked far better since he replaced Astle than he did in his stint between September 2005 and October 2006. His scores starting then were 66, 76, 90, 31, 76* (there may have been a let-off in there somewhere, but I don't remember one). Has he ever achieved this sort of run before in his career? I doubt it.
 
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NZTailender

I can't believe I ate the whole thing
For me, he's looked far better since he replaced Astle than he did in his stint between September 2005 and October 2006. His scores starting then were 66, 76, 90, 31, 76* (there may have been a let-off in there somewhere, but I don't remember one). Has he ever achieved this sort of run before in his career? I doubt it.
No. This has been his best run and I dare say he's around his peak so he should also be playing tests. Hopefully he'll be able to fill his boots at home this season.
 

shortpitched713

International Captain
Oh, that's awful. No doubts. But no more or less awful, IMO, than 20 at 100. I just don't want either of those players anywhere near my side.
Yeah, tbh 20 at a strike rate of 100 was a horrible example, because theres no player in international cricket currently with those kind of stats whose really rated as a batsman.

Even Afridi's stats are better than that, and hes more comparable with the Kamran Akmals of the world than any actual batsmen of note.
 

slugger

State Vice-Captain
this whole average/strike rate business is truely impossible to rate a players ability on those stats. however i read an article way back, where this chap combined the 2 stats to ie: avg x sr / 100 .

so maybe that method might settle a few argurments
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
It doesn't, it makes perfect sense. I've said this before and much as I may try to keep repetitions to a minumum, it annoys me greatly when people keep saying the exact same thing about me as if I'd never offered a refutal.

Economy-rates are the most important thing in bowling. A bowler with a good economy-rate is a good ODI bowler. Hence, batting against the best bowlers is likely to mean you're going to have to score a bit slower if you want to score at all. If you try to score at 90 per 100 balls, you're not often going to get many. It's only rubbish bowling that will allow you to do this and score heavily.

Hence, someone like Knight, who scored slower and against a better calibre of bowler than Jayasuriya, is a better player than Jayasuriya who scored quicker against a lesser calibre of bowler than Knight. Ditto Gilchrist. And Jayasuriya > Gilchrist, really - he has far more of a "novelty" factor.

Gilchrist and Jayasuriya > Knight when it comes to bashing rubbish bowling. Knight > Jayasuriya and Gilchrist when it comes to scoring against the best attacks. And for me, the latter makes a better batsman than the former.
What irks me about this is the theoretical possibility that both batsmen and bowlers could do well at the same time. What is good for one should be bad for the other - and hence, what is good for each bowler should be bad for opposition batsman.

Theoretically, a team could finish their 50 overs on 0/100. All the bowlers would have economy rates of 2 and all the two openers would have nice big not-outs to add to their averages. Theoretically, everyone has played exceptionally here, but the target is smaller than a ant's eyeball and the team that batted first would almost certainly lose.

ODIs more than anything else are about adapting to ever-changing state of the game. If you come on to bowl second change and the opening bowlers haven't taken any wickets, bowling your spell straight through as 10-40-0 is not going to be as helpful as you'd think, as the batting side will still be no wickets down with about 15 overs remaining and will hence have a completely free licence to swing from the hip. Similarly, taking 3 tailend wickets at the death in your last two overs despite going for 30 off them is going to be pretty poor as well. It is much the same as batting: if you come in at 5/75 and score 30 (18) and then get caught at long on, you've batted ridiculously, but similarly, if you come with 10 overs to go with nine wickets in hand and score 10* (30), you've played an equally horrible innings.

For mine, there are far too many small periods in one day cricket where both teams are content. The fielding captain is thinking "I'll just slow things down, spread the field and bring on some accurate bowlers" while the batsmen are thinking "We'll just steady the innings here and pick off a few single before going for the assault later." The result - the bowlers go for about 4rpo and are happy, while the batting team consolidate their position, and are happy. Someone should be displeased by proceedings or we don't really have a contest, do we?

All these factors are why ODI stats are hard to judge. What "stat" you are trying to better changes from game to game, from spell to spell, from innings to innings and from situation to situation. 10-42-0 can be a great spell in some situations and a poor spell in others so it's wrong to just look at a bowler's economy rate to judge them. The same goes for their average, though, as wickets at (especially, but not limited to..) the death are often quite useless. Personally, I think most people put a little too much weighting on bowling averages and a little too much weighting on batting strike rates, but I also think you, Richard, go a little too far the other way. All are important within each match, and career ODI stats can actually mean very little if a player's role changes from game to game. Hypothetically, a bowler ties down some absolute carnage from all other directions to finish with 10-43-0 in three consecutive matches including some superb death bowling in each game; the opposition reach 320 and his team chases it down both times. In his fourth match, he is expensive early against pinch-hitting sloggers but then takes vital wickets, exposing the lower order, and then the opposition gets bundled out. He finishes with 10-64-4. He has bowled well in all matches and done the job required of his team in every game, yet his stats are going to look poor in all departments: an average of 48.25 going at 4.83rpo - absolutely shocking stats. The nature of the different things required at different times of ODIs means you can't just look at overall stats like these; you have to examine each game and the roles the bowlers (and batsmen, for that matter) play.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
:) You're not wrong. Goes to show that a game-by-game breakdown is always preferable to an overall average.

What you say about there being too many periods when both teams are satisfied I agree with wholesomely too. Fielding captains should never, IMO, be happy with going for about 4-an-over in the non-Powerplay first-40 overs. You've got to look to keep it far lower than that, and good bowlers with good field-settings will mostly be able to do this. For me, accepting a batting side taking, say, 80 off overs 20 to 40 for the loss of 2 wickets is shockingly poor captaincy. Batting sides should be well happy with this, given a decent Powerplay stint.
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
Goes to show that a game-by-game breakdown is always preferable to an overall average.
Well, in ODIs anyway. I think tests stats tell the truth a bit more as the requirements stay more consistent: score runs and take cheap wickets. What is required of you in an ODI can change so much that your stats will always end up skewed.

It also doesn't work if you have an agenda... :p
 

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