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Is Mohammad Asif currently the best fast bowler in the world ?

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Oh no, we've often been told that if 5 bowlers were good enough to concede 4 an over whilst being completely unthreatening then a team would score 200-0 against them in 50 overs.
We've been told absolutely nothing of the sort. We've been told that wickets would eventually be gifted, because batsmen are not brainless fools who don't realise that scoring 4-an-over isn't good enough.

Wickets are a by-product of containment - a near-enough inevitable one.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If one guy is 10-40, then you can be sure the other guys are going to be belted. If you only tighten things and not take wickets, international quality batsmen will find runs somewhere. You have to take wickets, especially if you're the main wicket taking option.
Even if you do take wickets, international-quality batsmen will still score runs if the other bowlers are poor enough.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
A bowler who takes wickets will, in the vast majority of cases, cause his teammates to be more economical.
That's nonsense - if his team-mates bowl well, they'll be economical, if they don't, they won't, simple as. Bad bowling will get belted regardless of how many wickets have been \ are being lost.
The fact is that no team will ever make 210 (on a decent batting wicket) unless they've lost wickets and thus been forced to slow down.
Has it really escaped your notice that being forced to slow down (by accurate bowling) results in wickets? And then continues to result in both?
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Huh? Yea, but its always better than not taking wickets.
It is, but if he's surrounded by pie-chuckers who go for 6-an-over all the time, a bowler who bowls 10 for 34 isn't going to help any more by taking 3 wickets than by taking 0, because inaccurate bowling from his team-mates will be punished regardless.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
It is, but if he's surrounded by pie-chuckers who go for 6-an-over all the time, a bowler who bowls 10 for 34 isn't going to help any more by taking 3 wickets than by taking 0, because inaccurate bowling from his team-mates will be punished regardless.
Yes, but if the guy is your primary wicket taker in the side, he should not be merely economical as it implies people are just seeing him off and scoring off everyone else. And 40 runs is economical, but not exceptionally so...so its not like he's completely drying up the runs either.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
In ODIs England doesn't have a team. It's a collection of players with hardly a clue.
A team is a collection of players who play together and work with each others' strengths.
How on Earth is England's failures a result of a lack of working with each others' strengths?

There are hardly any strengths there to work with!!!!!!!!
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Yes, but if the guy is your primary wicket taker in the side, he should not be merely economical as it implies people are just seeing him off and scoring off everyone else. And 40 runs is economical, but not exceptionally so...so its not like he's completely drying up the runs either.
If they are, well done to them. That's called sensible ODI batting.

But you surely must recognise that even if they don't manage to successfully see him off, and he gets a couple of wickets, he can't save his team-mates from a battering if they're not good enough.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Harbhajan: 29/1 off 10 overs
Powar: 43/3 off 10 overs

That's what Indian spinners need to do in every match. The fast bowlers can get away with being merely economical or expensive wicket takers.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
If they are, well done to them. That's called sensible ODI batting.

But you surely must recognise that even if they don't manage to successfully see him off, and he gets a couple of wickets, he can't save his team-mates from a battering if they're not good enough.
No he can't, but he has to do his job. If he is in there as the primary wicket taker, then it is not enough for him to go for 4.00 runs an over (which in itself is not all that economical anyway).
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Also, IMO Ramesh Powar is a better finger spinner than Harbhajan. Harbhajan has gone downhill ever since he started using the doosra and now without it, he's quite mediocre. People have success with it early so become way too reliant on it and ignore other parts of their game.
I personally think Harbhajan's Doosra (along with Saqlain's) is a key reason for his success, as well as his skillful use of variation in flight and his quick wits.

I think you're going a way to call Pawar a better ODI bowler, all he's done is tie some rubbish England batting-line-ups in knots.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
Harbhajan: 29/1 off 10 overs
Powar: 43/3 off 10 overs

That's what Indian spinners need to do in every match. The fast bowlers can get away with being merely economical or expensive wicket takers.
Thats a very good match, but 4 wickets between the two spinners should be slightly below average.
 

silentstriker

The Wheel is Forever
I personally think Harbhajan's Doosra (along with Saqlain's) is a key reason for his success, as well as his skillful use of variation in flight and his quick wits.

I think you're going a way to call Pawar a better ODI bowler, all he's done is tie some rubbish England batting-line-ups in knots.
It was a key reason for his success. But then when he started having success with it, he just kept bowling it more and more. He doesn't flight the ball as well (not much, but not well either), and his other deliveries are diminishing in performance. The doosra is a double edged sword in that way. He was a better bowler before the doosra, and he would have been even better with it had he not become so dependent on it.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
No he can't, but he has to do his job. If he is in there as the primary wicket taker, then it is not enough for him to go for 4.00 runs an over (which in itself is not all that economical anyway).
It's not outstanding, but 4-an-over is and has been for 15 years at least the benchmark. It's unfair to pigeonhole a spinner as "primary wicket-taker" because for the most part, the spinner does not possess the attacking weapons that a seamer does. The Warne\Murali\Mushy types are clearly an exception.

If the seamers aren't good enough, you won't get far relying on a spinner - unless you're always playing at home and can prepare perennially-slow-turning tracks, which no-one is and never does anyway.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It was a key reason for his success. But then when he started having success with it, he just kept bowling it more and more. He doesn't flight the ball as well (not much, but not well either), and his other deliveries are diminishing in performance. The doosra is a double edged sword in that way. He was a better bowler before the doosra, and he would have been even better with it had he not become so dependent on it.
Hang on, didn't he start bowling the Doosra 6 years and more ago, after copying Saqlain? I certainly remember him and Saqlain as being the torchbearers.

I agree that he can sometimes over-use it, but to say he's been doing so for any length of time at all is IMO dubious.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
That's nonsense - if his team-mates bowl well, they'll be economical, if they don't, they won't, simple as. Bad bowling will get belted regardless of how many wickets have been \ are being lost.
It's not nonsense at all, it's one of the most basic elements of ODI strategy, and the fact that you fail to take note of it is simply laughable. If a team goes 2 or 3 down after 10 or 15 overs, they will be forced to spend the following period rebuilding the innings. 4 or 5 down and they might not be able to go after the bowling until the death overs. That situation allows for bowlers who might otherwise have gone for runs to get through economical overs as the batsmen won't be looking to attack. There are so many examples of this phenomenon that pointing out specific games would be a waste of time. Take a look at any ODI series and you will see games where this occurs.

If a team gets to 0/50 after 10 overs however, they'll be looking to up the run rate. 0/100 and you'll have to bowl extremely well or take wickets to avoid getting belted. That's the way ODI cricket works. That's why every captain talks about getting breakthroughs or building partnerships, and why bowlers who take wickets in the early overs are incredibly valuable.

Has it really escaped your notice that being forced to slow down (by accurate bowling) results in wickets? And then continues to result in both?
Sure, bowling accurately and keeping pressure on the batsmen by slowing the scoring can allow you to take wickets, just like keeping the batting side on the defensive by taking wickets can reduce the run rate. They are certainly related aims. However, your suggestion that accurate bowling which doesn't result in wicket taking will result over the full course of a team's innings in a low to moderate score is simply parted from reality. Such a thing doesn't occur in modern ODI cricket.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
It's not nonsense at all, it's one of the most basic elements of ODI strategy, and the fact that you fail to take note of it is simply laughable. If a team goes 2 or 3 down after 10 or 15 overs, they will be forced to spend the following period rebuilding the innings. 4 or 5 down and they might not be able to go after the bowling until the death overs. That situation allows for bowlers who might otherwise have gone for runs to get through economical overs as the batsmen won't be looking to attack. There are so many examples of this phenomenon that pointing out specific games would be a waste of time. Take a look at any ODI series and you will see games where this occurs.
You'll never, ever see it occurring. If bowlers bowl waywardly, they will go for runs, no matter how many wickets are falling or have fallen prior to said wayward spell.

You will indeed be forced to spend 10-15 overs rebuilding (ie scoring relatively slowly) when losing 2 or 3 wickets in the first 15 - IF the bowling is accurate enough. Yet it's also true that if you race to 90 off 15 and then come-up against some accurate bowling your rate will probably be slowed, and you'll probably give away some wickets trying to keep it going.

And it's utterly silly to suggest that just because a side has lost even 4 or 5 wickets in the first 20 overs, say, that inaccurate bowling won't go round the park. There are countless examples, take a look at any game where said wicket-loss happens, and you'll see it. Almost any batsman will go after wayward bowling - and usually manage to score freely off it.
If a team gets to 0/50 after 10 overs however, they'll be looking to up the run rate. 0/100 and you'll have to bowl extremely well or take wickets to avoid getting belted. That's the way ODI cricket works. That's why every captain talks about getting breakthroughs or building partnerships, and why bowlers who take wickets in the early overs are incredibly valuable.
Bowlers who can take wickets by bowling wicket-taking deliveries in the early overs are indeed valuable. But so are those who can keep things tight in the Powerplays. Often, of course, the latter leads to wicket-taking anyway. There are many examples, too, of this.
Sure, bowling accurately and keeping pressure on the batsmen by slowing the scoring can allow you to take wickets, just like keeping the batting side on the defensive by taking wickets can reduce the run rate. They are certainly related aims. However, your suggestion that accurate bowling which doesn't result in wicket taking will result over the full course of a team's innings in a low to moderate score is simply parted from reality. Such a thing doesn't occur in modern ODI cricket.
My suggestion is that accurate bowling rarely fails to result in wickets. I have never, once, suggested that accurate bowling throughout an innings (remembering the required spot to aim at changes over the course of an innings) is likely to result in totals of 210\3. Never.

And you'd be hard-pressed to counter that.
 

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