Formula 1 Thread

[social]

**** off social, webber has always been one of our best talents. i never liked him though

Course he is talented but there were other guys equally so

However, Webber obviously has a good brain and developed a number of important connections/sponsors and it was that, as much as talent, that eventually got him into Formula 1

 

[uvelocity]

'wasnt in the top 5 drivers' = false

 

[Coronis]

Remember when he put that Jaguar on the front row? Damn impressive. I've always loved him.

 

[social]

'wasnt in the top 5 drivers' = false

Webber didnt have a huge amount of success in his early career despite always being very well funded

 

[uvelocity]

you name me 5 more talented, better performed or more accomplished australian drivers circa 2002

 

[social]

you name me 5 more talented, better performed or more accomplished australian drivers circa 2002

Roughly the same era - Skaife, Lowndes, Ambrose, Courtney

Older ones still competing - Jones, Perkins, Brabham

Bit younger - Power and Briscoe

 

[uvelocity]

well what are you arguing? none of those were more accomplished or had performed better

courtney is the only one one a similar level in that regard, and along with briscoe the only ones with a similar amount of ability.

if you're trying to tell me that alan jones or david brabham were better drivers in 2002 than mark webber i just dont know what to say to you

 

[benchmark00]

Evidence that flogcity is a bogan:

• Lives on the Gold Coast
• Drinks JD Cans
• Follows NRL
• Is a rev head
• Is a fan of Darren Lehmann

There is no denying.

 

[uvelocity]

• has a massive schlong
• can bench press benchmark00

 

[social]

well what are you arguing? none of those were more accomplished or had performed better

courtney is the only one one a similar level in that regard, and along with briscoe the only ones with a similar amount of ability.

if you're trying to tell me that alan jones or david brabham were better drivers in 2002 than mark webber i just dont know what to say to you

Up until 2002, Webber's main claim to fame were some minor placings in some feeder series, a couple of race victories and for being a test driver

He is obviously a very talented driver but his is the best example of how connections are just as important as talent in reaching Formula 1

Compare him to someone like Ambrose - won the British Formula Ford Championship (Webber failed to do so despite having a much bigger budget), won multiple V8 Supercar championships, and now drives Nascar

There is no doubt that he is every bit as talented as Webber and was more accomplished in 2002 but he couldnt even get funding together for a full season in F3000 in Europe so had to return to Australia

Same arguments could be made for Lowndes and Skaife who were infinitely more accomplished than Webber in 2002

 

[Coronis]

Skaife and Lowndes were pure touring car drivers I would've said. On a side note, Ambrose may be coming back to the V8's next year if he doesn't win a stupid oval race. He's already ****ing them up on their 1 or 2 road races a year.

 

[uvelocity]

of course connections are important social, and money. rest assured there are many other drivers just as talented as those who you've never heard of.

but you said webber wasn't in the top 5 drivers in australia when he made his f1 debut. just correct that statement and everything will be fine.

 

[social]

of course connections are important social, and money. rest assured there are many other drivers just as talented as those who you've never heard of.

but you said webber wasn't in the top 5 drivers in australia when he made his f1 debut. just correct that statement and everything will be fine.

But was he one of the top 5?

He obviously had talent and potential but hadnt achieved much on the track

For example, I would put Lowndes' record as of 2002 (Australian Formula Ford champion, multiple touring car championships, Bathurst, etc) well out in front

Same could be said of Skaife and Ambrose (who had won British open wheeler championship by that time)

Might sneak into top 5 but not a given

 

[social]

Skaife and Lowndes were pure touring car drivers I would've said. On a side note, Ambrose may be coming back to the V8's next year if he doesn't win a stupid oval race. He's already ****ing them up on their 1 or 2 road races a year.

Main reason to compete in the junior open wheeler series is to get noticed by F1/Indy as there is very little money in it for drivers

Lowndes and Skaife went to Europe to compete in these series but didnt last long as their teams folded due to budgetary problems and they returned home

Ambrose got a seat in a good team and won a prestigious championship but didnt get picked up by F1 so came back to V8s

Webber was extremely well managed/advised from the outset and he recieved a number of opportunities with well-funded teams despite not really having the track record to justify it early in his career (most impressive racing results were actually recorded in sports cars)

As an indication of how smart the strategy was, his first seat in F1 was with Minardi, a team that was owned by an Australian that financed Webber in the early part of his career.

 

[Johnners]

Naah, no way Jones, Brabham & Perkins were better drivers in 2002. More accomplished yes, but at that point in time there's no way they were better drivers.

Ambrose though, WAG

 

[uvelocity]

For example, I would put Lowndes' record as of 2002 (Australian Formula Ford champion, multiple touring car championships, Bathurst, etc) well out in front

well you'd be wrong. the AFF championship means nothing in the scheme of things. Lowndes was drafted into the best team - who won 5 titles in a row at that time, winning his first title going h2h with a 50 year old man ffs. and he got there because his old man was mates with Brocky.

BFF & F3 is a higher standard. Just competing in F3000, GT1 & GTP Le Mans is a higher standard. F1 test driver is a bigger achievement.

And that's not to say that winning bathurst isnt tops, I'd love to have just raced at bathurst. But in terms of standard, V8SC is still for the blokes who couldn't make it OS.

 

[social]

well you'd be wrong. the AFF championship means nothing in the scheme of things. Lowndes was drafted into the best team - who won 5 titles in a row at that time, winning his first title going h2h with a 50 year old man ffs. and he got there because his old man was mates with Brocky.

BFF & F3 is a higher standard. Just competing in F3000, GT1 & GTP Le Mans is a higher standard. F1 test driver is a bigger achievement.

And that's not to say that winning bathurst isnt tops, I'd love to have just raced at bathurst. But in terms of standard, V8SC is still for the blokes who couldn't make it OS.

Dont think that is fair across the board as some seats in those championships are simply bought by lesser drivers and most of our guys simply dont have that type of backing

Let's face it, no matter how good he has become, if Webber didnt have a business relationship with Stoddart, Briatore, etc, it's highly debateable as to whether he would be where he is today

 

[uvelocity]

you don't even get to v8sc without $ and connections. but it takes more $ and more people willing to throw $ at you because of what they see in you and what return they think they can get from you. and bigger punts and sacrifices to get there.

i hate analogies but it isn't any different than comparing playing grade, association, 1st class or international cricket

and yes money can get you everywhere (see pedro diniz) but you need money and bucketloads of talent to make it to the pinnacle

 

[social]

you don't even get to v8sc without $ and connections. but it takes more $ and more people willing to throw $ at you because of what they see in you and what return they think they can get from you. and bigger punts and sacrifices to get there.

i hate analogies but it isn't any different than comparing playing grade, association, 1st class or international cricket

and yes money can get you everywhere (see pedro diniz) but you need money and bucketloads of talent to make it to the pinnacle

Even Jones was basically handed a seat at the beginning

Anyway, Webber is definitely the most complete "package" we have ever produced (talented, articulate, business savvy, comes across as a good bloke etc) so good luck to him

However, I still reckon that someone like Ambrose had the raw materials to do well at the highest level (after all, he has more Nascar victories than Montoya and they dont hand those out easily) but simply didnt get the breaks for whatever reason

BTW, can you still drive around parts of Mt Panorama?

My old man barrelled around there in a Morris Minor years ago

 

[uvelocity]

i've not been there for years either, but yes - it's still a public road. people live on it