Third Name Listed for ATG XI

[The Battlers Prince]

If I had second pick and you failed to pick Gilly I would just point and laugh and laugh and laugh at you.

And then when he drops Bradman because he isn't the best keeper for the job so Bradman doubles his score. Is the extra 15 runs going to matter? No, but it is when I'll laugh at you.
Honestly, I don't care if he makes YOUR team. I'm saying he doesn't make mine

 

[kyear2]

I don't think Warne will be an automatic choice.Maybe not even Marshall IMO.

Assuming that the ATG would consist of 3 fast bowlers and 1 spinner,there is always going to be every chance of Murali being chosen ahead of Warne,and when it comes to fast bowlers you could pick any from Imran,Marshall,Lillee,McGrath,Ambrose,Wasim etc and any 3 of them would make for an equally intimidating fast bowling attack.

There is every chance that Muralalitharan could be chosen over Warne, but he just isn't. In ATG XIs Warne is just always selected and not by especially small margins. But I acknowledge that they are many who prefer Muralitharan though it must be accepted that they are in the minority.
Regarding Marshall, one could choose any of the other players mentioned but once again Marshall is almost always chosen and chosen as the number one quick. In every exercise and pollpoll done on CW Maco always come out on top over Lillee and McGrath who are his only competition among his modern contemporaries. He (and Hobbs) makes virtually every ATG team both done here and by experts and while the names you mentioned would make a great attack, they wouldn't make a better one. By any objective statistical, anecdotal and historical analysis he (bar possibly Barnes and that is at best complicated) was and is the best.

The issue with Gilchrist is that while he is without doubt the greatest wicket keeper batsman ever, he isn't the greatest keeper and while he was a great/excellent keeper, some, myself not included prefers to have the greatest keeper.

 

[OverratedSanity]

And then when he drops Bradman because he isn't the best keeper for the job so Bradman doubles his score. Is the extra 15 runs going to matter? No, but it is when I'll laugh at you.
Honestly, I don't care if he makes YOUR team. I'm saying he doesn't make mine

He wouldn't ever drop bradman because they'll both be in the same team, The first ATG XI

You still haven't explained why you think Gilchrist isn't an excellent keeper though. He hardly dropped any catches and he kept almost flawlessly to Warne, which must've been as big a challenge as any keeper has ever faced behind the stumps

 

[kyear2]

And then when he drops Bradman because he isn't the best keeper for the job so Bradman doubles his score. Is the extra 15 runs going to matter? No, but it is when I'll laugh at you.
Honestly, I don't care if he makes YOUR team. I'm saying he doesn't make mine

I disagree, understand your point. Gilchrist though is really under rated as a keeper and Knott as great as he was had untimely drops as well, though obviously few.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

He wouldn't ever drop bradman because they'll both be in the same team, The first ATG XI

You still haven't explained why you think Gilchrist isn't an excellent keeper though. He hardly dropped any catches and he kept almost flawlessly to Warne, which must've been as big a challenge as any keeper has ever faced behind the stumps

I've touched on part of the reason earlier in this thread, (stuffs me how you think he did it "flawlessly", weren't you watching?). I'm not going into it more. I'm not going to waste time trying to change your mind when I know I won't. You have your opinion and I have mine.
These will only ever be hypothetical, so it means they're playing other hypothetical sides. So hypothetically he drops my Bradman, while your Don watches on, thinking '***** me, wish we had Tallon" lol. All power to you OS, just having my say.

I don't think I can put an overall vote to a third certainty, behind Bradman and Sobers. I think Gilchrist, Mako or Hobbs might be next ones in most teams. Not my choice just who I think are closest to consensus on.

 

[kyear2]

Wouldn't you include Warne in the list of Marshall, Hobbs and Gilchrist? Because he is one of the 6 that are just always there and seems equally a consensus choice.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The real reason why Warne trumps Murali in most people's teams when picking such teams is that a very large portion of such teams were picked around or before 2002-03 (correct me if I'm wrong). Murali for the most part really started tearing it up as his career progressed, unlike Warne who was ridiculously good from his 3rd or 4th test. He was already recognised as an ATG in the late 90s.

Give it more time, Kyear, and I'm sure Murali will start to make it into more such teams. Not as much as Warne, maybe because of other reasons, but I'm confident it definitely won't be this lopsided

 

[smash84]

Murali will always be under rated because of the questions raised on his bowling action, unfortunately

 

[the big bambino]

And then when he drops Bradman because he isn't the best keeper for the job so Bradman doubles his score. Is the extra 15 runs going to matter? No, but it is when I'll laugh at you.
Honestly, I don't care if he makes YOUR team. I'm saying he doesn't make mine

Extra 15 runs? How disingenuous. You know that those 15 runs represent a difference over a career not consistent 15 more runs per match. McGrath's advantage as a bowler over say, Zaheer is less than 15 runs a wicket. Gilchrist's advantage over his rivals is even greater. Whereas the difference in keeping skills btwn the top contenders is miniscule.

Besides who's to say he'd drop DGB? And who's to say a replacement would catch him? When you make up absurd scenarios it can't help but negatively influence your point. You take Gilly bcos all up his record is superior to any other keeper and more likely therefore to effect a dismissal and make the match winning hundred.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Can anyone point me to all these drops or missed chances Gilchrist had throughout his career which make him "not an excellent" keeper. I seem to have missed them somehow.

Murali will always be under rated because of the questions raised on his bowling action, unfortunately

Tha and the fact that he's not from a glamorous team are the "other reasons" I was referring to

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Gilchrist's Ashes Nightmare - 2005 - YouTube

I've got to sleep but this is a tiny example. Other keepers put down chances, particularly since Gilly "revolutionised the position". But his keeping in many series was ok. But never great.

 

[kyear2]

Murali will always be under rated because of the questions raised on his bowling action, unfortunately

It's partially that, the romanticism surrounding Warne, the allure and rarity of a great leg spinner, the fact he played for a stronger team and also because of his slip fielding and his batting. Combination of all probably.

 

[steve132]

There is every chance that Muralalitharan could be chosen over Warne, but he just isn't. In ATG XIs Warne is just always selected and not by especially small margins. But I acknowledge that they are many who prefer Muralitharan though it must be accepted that they are in the minority.
Regarding Marshall, one could choose any of the other players mentioned but once again Marshall is almost always chosen and chosen as the number one quick. In every exercise and pollpoll done on CW Maco always come out on top over Lillee and McGrath who are his only competition among his modern contemporaries. He (and Hobbs) makes virtually every ATG team both done here and by experts and while the names you mentioned would make a great attack, they wouldn't make a better one. By any objective statistical, anecdotal and historical analysis he (bar possibly Barnes and that is at best complicated) was and is the best.

The issue with Gilchrist is that while he is without doubt the greatest wicket keeper batsman ever, he isn't the greatest keeper and while he was a great/excellent keeper, some, myself not included prefers to have the greatest keeper.

Excellent summary. Gilchrist is probably the consensus choice, although according to the Richard Sydenham book that Watson discussed in the "best ever" thread, many prefer Knott. Gilchrist cannot, however, by any stretch of the imagination be described as an automatic choice comparable to those of Bradman or Sobers.

 

[Coronis]

Gilchrist's Ashes Nightmare - 2005 - YouTube

I've got to sleep but this is a tiny example. Other keepers put down chances, particularly since Gilly "revolutionised the position". But his keeping in many series was ok. But never great.

Glenn McGrath gets a stumping off his bowling!!!!! - YouTube

 

[ankitj]

It's partially that, the romanticism surrounding Warne, the allure and rarity of a great leg spinner, the fact he played for a stronger team and also because of his slip fielding and his batting. Combination of all probably.

Slip fielding and batting has nothing to do with it.

 

[kyear2]

I have read and heard persons say that it did and influenced their decision.

 

[kyear2]

A few weeks back I had emailed a well known and respected cricket writer and historian (don't want to mention his name as I didn't ask his permission to post his response) when I was collecting teams for the ATG XI's from past players thread and asked what he was. I only read his response today but he replied that he has never done one as it was a difficult task (across era etc) but went on further to say "But I guess I would regard the following as non-negotiable: Bradman, Hobbs, Sobers, Warne, Marshall and possibly Tendulkar now too"

More or less the same list as above. Really difficult to argue against those names.

 

[Red]

Gilchrist's Ashes Nightmare - 2005 - YouTube

I've got to sleep but this is a tiny example. Other keepers put down chances, particularly since Gilly "revolutionised the position". But his keeping in many series was ok. But never great.

His keeping was far better than ok. And to pick out one bad series from his whole career (in a video that highlights all his mistakes) is pretty poor and completely unrepresentative of his career.

I could find hundreds of Gilly's highlight reels on YouTube where his excellent batting/keeping slayed the opposition.

 

[Red]

And the nostalgia factor on guys like Knott and Tallon is huge.

 

[steds]

Glenn McGrath gets a stumping off his bowling!!!!! - YouTube

Not bad, but nothing other keepers couldn't do. Jack Russell did it loads of times