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Thread: An Assessent of the 'ATG XI - Open Voting' thread: The Bottom Four.

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    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    An Assessent of the 'ATG XI - Open Voting' thread: The Bottom Four.

    During the recent ‘ATG XI – Open Voting’ thread the following bowling combinations were selected for the First XI (current July 6th);

    WITH ALLROUNDER

    08. Imran Khan
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Glenn McGrath
    (3 Votes)


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Bill O'Reilly
    11. Harold Larwood


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Wasim Akram
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Richard Hadlee
    10. Malcolm Marshall
    11. Glenn McGrath


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Muttiah Muralitharan
    11. Glenn McGrath


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Richard Hadlee
    10. Malcolm Marshall
    11. Shane Warne
    (2 Votes)


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Wasim Akram
    10. Shane Warne
    10. Malcolm Marshall


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Shane Warne
    10. Malcolm Marshall
    11. Sydney Barnes


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Mike Procter
    10. Malcolm Marshall
    11. Shane Warne


    08. Imran Khan
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Curtly Ambrose


    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Curtly Ambrose
    11. Muttiah Muralitheran


    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Curtly Ambrose

    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan
    (2 Votes)


    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Glenn McGrath


    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Curtly Ambrose
    11. Muttiah Muralitharan


    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Harold Larwood
    10. Malcolm Marshall
    11. Shane Warne


    08. Richard Hadlee
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Muttiah Muralitharan
    11. Sydney Barnes


    08. Mike Procter
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Glenn McGrath


    08. Alan Davidson
    09. Malcolm Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Joel Garner


    WITHOUT ALLROUNDER

    08. Malcolm Marshall
    09. Shane Warne
    10. Fred Trueman
    11. Dennis Lillee


    08. Malcolm Marshall
    09. Shane Warne
    10. Sydney Barnes
    11. Glenn McGrath


    08. Malcolm Marshall
    09. Shane Warne
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Glenn McGrath
    (2 Votes)


    08. Malcolm Marshall
    09. Shane Warne
    10. Dennis Lillee
    11. Sydney Barnes


    08. Wasim Akram
    09. Malcom Marshall
    10. Shane Warne
    11. Glenn McGrath


    TALLY:
    01. Malcolm Marshall = 29
    02. Shane Warne = 21
    03. Imran Khan = 12
    04. Glenn McGrath = 11
    05. Richard Hadlee = 11
    06. Muttiah Muralitheran = 7
    07. Curtly Ambrose = 4
    08. Sydney Barnes = 4
    09. Dennis Lillee = 4
    10. Wasim Akram = 3
    11. Harold Larwood = 2
    12. Mike Procter = 2
    13. Bill ‘O’Reilly = 1
    14. Alan Davidson = 1
    15. Joel Garner = 1
    16. Fred Trueman = 1


    TOTAL RESPONDENTS = 29

    DIFFERENT COMBINATIONS = 24

    MOST COMMON COMBINATION (3 Votes) = Imran-Marshall-Warne-McGrath

    TOP 4 BOWLERS = Marshall-Warne-Imran-McGrath/Hadlee

    WITHOUT ALLROUNDER = 5 (17%)

    ALL PACE ATTACK = 1

    DUAL SPIN ATTACK (SLOW) = 2

    MEDIUM PACE BOWLER (Sydney Barnes) = 4 (14%)


    CONCLUSION:
    It seems that the most desired bowling combination was:
    one fast bowling allrounder, two fast bowlers plus one spinner.

    Only on 6 (21%) occasions was the attack varied with an extra spinner or medium paced bowler. When a medium paced bowler was chosen it was always Sydney Barnes. No respondent thought to include the expertise of a bowler like Maurice Tate, Alec Bedser, Bill Johnston, Fazal Mahmood, or a medium paced ‘swerve’ bowler from the19th century.

    While the most desired type of bowling combination was obvious, there was no clear concensus as to who the four bowlers should be. However, it was clear that Imran Khan (10/34%) and Richard Hadlee (7/24%) were the most favoured allrounders to occupy the No.8 batting position. And of course Malcolm Marshall and Shane Warne remain clear favourites of CricketWeb.

    Only 6 (21%) respondents chose not to include an allrounder, but instead thought that the combined batting skills of Malcolm Marshall and Shane Warne (plus Wasim Akram on one occasion) was acceptable in the No.8 and No.9 positions.


    QUESTION:
    Prior to Clive Lloyd’s captaincy the most successful teams featured two fast bowlers, a slower medium paced bowler, plus one spinner. Sometimes they would even feature two spinners. A typical example is; Lindwall-Miller-Johnston-Johnson.

    Was Clive Lloyd correct in making us all assume that an attack needs at least three fast bowlers to be the strongest type of attack possible? Or is the quality of each bowler the key factor, rather than the quantity of each type of bowler?


    (Note: There may be some counting and mathematical errors, plus typos - I'm not perfect. Also, I have changed the batting order of some combinations according to the batting average of each bowler, and generally accepted ability.)

    (Note: A special mention for the attack featuring: Davidson-Marshall-Warne-Garner - I like it.)
    Last edited by watson; 05-07-2013 at 05:40 PM.
    "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong" - Oscar Wilde

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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    QUESTION:
    Prior to Clive Lloyd’s captaincy the most successful teams featured two fast bowlers, a slower medium paced bowler, plus one spinner. Sometimes they would even feature two spinners. A typical example is; Lindwall-Miller-Johnston-Johnson.

    Was Clive Lloyd correct in making us all assume that an attack needs at least three fast bowlers to be the strongest type of attack possible? Or is the quality of each bowler the key factor, rather than the quantity of each type of bowler?


    (Note: There may be some counting and mathematical errors - I'm not perfect. Also, I have changed the batting order of some combinations according to the batting average of each bowler, and generally accepted ability.)
    Both.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Jeets doesn't really deserve to be bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    Well yeah Tendy is probably better than Bradman, but Bradman was 70 years ago, if he grew up in the modern era he'd still easily be the best. Though he wasn't, can understand the argument for Tendy even though I don't agree.
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    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    Marshall and Khan are pretty much locked in, which is something I'd agree with.

    I like Akram here because he just fits so nicely into that attack. Marshall and Akram opening, Khan first change and then Sobers or the spinner depending on the conditions.

    I don't really care whether Murali or Warne get the nod.

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    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    sorry didn't really read the question...

    I think yes, you do need 3 pace bowlers. I'm having a hard time articulating why though.


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    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    Both.
    What evidence do you have that success if more readily achieved with 3 fast bowlers, rather than 2 fast bowlers plus 1 medium paced (swing?) bowler. Assuming that a spinner is played in either case..

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    International Captain hendrix's Avatar
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    depends on your definition of medium pace. I'd call nathan astle medium pace swing bowling, but some people would say that Hilfenhaus and Vaas would also fit into that category.

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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    What evidence do you have that success if more readily achieved with 3 fast bowlers, rather than 2 fast bowlers plus 1 medium paced (swing?) bowler. Assuming that a spinner is played in either case..
    I don't see what you're asking here.

    I think quality and attack balance/variation are equally important and which one you lean towards more of depends on available resources.

    South Africa don't have a good fast bowling attack simply because they're good bowlers. They have three very different bowlers. Would you select three pure swing bowlers? Or three pure seam bowlers? Or three pure steep bounce bowlers?

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    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    I don't see what you're asking here.

    I think quality and attack balance/variation are equally important and which one you lean towards more of depends on available resources.

    South Africa don't have a good fast bowling attack simply because they're good bowlers. They have three very different bowlers. Would you select three pure swing bowlers? Or three pure seam bowlers? Or three pure steep bounce bowlers?
    When selecting ATG XI you have abundant resources to choose from, and all of excellent quality. So I wondering why the majority of people assume that the strongest possible attack must feature 3 fast bowlers (and a token spinner)?

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    State 12th Man Flametree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    When selecting ATG XI you have abundant resources to choose from, and all of excellent quality. So I wondering why the majority of people assume that the strongest possible attack must feature 3 fast bowlers (and a token spinner)?
    Because if you're bowling in the first innings of the match for the first forty overs at least you'd expect the bowlers to pose most of the threat to be the quicker bowlers, while the spinners, no matter how good they are, won't be at their best on seamer-friendly wickets with a new-ish ball/. And on many wickets you'd still expect the seam / quick bowlers to be needed with the second new ball and in the second innings. To get through that number of overs you need at least three of them.

    I'm not so hung up on the definitiion of quick vs swing vs medium pace however. Someone like Hadlee for most of his career wasn't express quick, but he could be quick enough. I'm not sure I'd call him a quick bowler if we were dealing in semantics - more fast-medium than fast. I imagine on some days he may even have slowed himself down to try to get more swing. So an attack of Marshall Hadlee McGrath for instance is 1x fast and 2x fast-medium.

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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    Well we know Steyn has the fast medium maximum swing first spell and saves his speed for when the new ball wears off/pitch flattens out and I doubt he's the first swing bowler with serious pace to use that trick.

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    International Captain bagapath's Avatar
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    whether they bowled express fast - fast - or fast medium, which they all were at various phases in their careers, imran khan, richard hadlee and malcolm marshall are very easy choices for any AT XI. they could swing, cut and bounce the hell out of any batting line up. And they were very hard working and smart cricketers who would think the great batsmen out. Besides, they had the aura of true legends that certainly helped them with their presence on the cricket field. the same qualities were true for dennis lillee, glen mcgrath and curtley ambrose (or fred truman). they were also equally good as individual bowlers and as a bowling unit (theoretically). it will be splitting hairs to choose between either of the attacks. the first combo also happen to be very good with the bat and probably that is why they get selected more often.



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