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Thread: Early era batsmen

  1. #46
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Don't you support Pakistan?
    Since when have I supported the cheaters in the team?
    Last edited by Agent Nationaux; 26-01-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  2. #47
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pothas View Post
    Err you do know that drafts are not actually real, right?
    No. I have Time Machine in my garage and have Bill O'Reilly over for afternoon tea and a hit in the nets most Sundays. What do you do with your Sundays?
    Last edited by watson; 26-01-2013 at 04:31 PM.
    Tendulkar - M.Waugh - Ponting - Richards - Dhoni - Bevan - Kapil Dev - Hadlee - Akram - Garner - Muralitharan

  3. #48
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I agree. If the scenario was 'SCG Test match circa 1890s' then I would bias my selections to batsman who have experienced 'sticky wickets'. However, I would still select Marshall no matter what. If he was lethal on 'flat' 1980s pitches then he would be especially lethal on 1890s 'sticky' wickets bowling to batsman with no helmets!

    And again I agree with your term 'messy' as this sort of 'what if' thinking is always 'messy'. But I find it inherently more fun than a reductive approach where you choose a particular player based purely on his performance against his peers.

    'Messy' is better.
    I can definitely see the fun in it, and I guess I do it as a fun exercise in most drafts, but it's just not how I decide my picks and votes.

    Trying to decide how Graeme Pollock's run scoring would differ as a result of facing Sydney Barnes at the MCG in 1909, while at the same time trying to figure out how Jack Hobbs would go against Shane Warne and Dale Steyn in 2013, all while trying to figure out if Sachin Tendulkar would play Bill O'Reiley like he did Warne is too much for me!
    Last edited by Cabinet96; 26-01-2013 at 04:36 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    This English top three are cornflakes. They're not the most exciting thing out but they're pretty effective. Then the middle order are the sugar. Would be too much on their own but added to the cornflakes they add some much needed interest

    When KP returns he will be the banana..

  4. #49
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    Since when have I supported the cheaters in the team?
    Yeah but you still hold what the team does in some regard, and rightly so. I don't see how Grace doing the odd dodgy thing detracts from his record as a player. He was obviously the King of Cricket. In fact, he was probably most responsible for making it a widely regarded sport and got it underway.
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  5. #50
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Yeah AN would rather support a team of convicted criminals than actually be one.
    Those criminals aren't in the team any more and were rightly banned. And if the choice came to it, yeah I would rather support a team of convicts than actually be one myself.

  6. #51
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    I can definitely see the fun in it, and I guess I do it as a fun exercise in most drafts, but it's just not how I decide my picks and votes.

    Trying to decide how Graeme Pollock's run scoring would differ as a result of facing Sydney Barnes at the MCG in 1909, while at the same time trying to figure out how Jack Hobbs would go against Shane Warne and Dale Steyn in 2013, all while trying to figure out if Sachin Tendulkar would play Bill O'Reiley like he did Warne is too much for me!
    Well it's too much for me too. But I still have a well founded hunch that Patsy Hendren (on a flat wicket) would smash Malcolm Marshall's bouncers repeatedly over the long-leg boundary. In fact, I reckon that the spectators on the 5th row back from the picket fence would spend most their afternoon ducking.

    As for Pollock V Barnes, we would have to find out in the literature whether Pollock was any good against drift/swing plus leg-breaks. I assume though that being a left-hander would help Pollock greatly. Ergo, Pollock to make 75 runs before lunch, and before being bowled 'thru the gate', at the MCG, 1909. No rain.
    Last edited by watson; 26-01-2013 at 04:48 PM.

  7. #52
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Yeah but you still hold what the team does in some regard, and rightly so. I don't see how Grace doing the odd dodgy thing detracts from his record as a player. He was obviously the King of Cricket. In fact, he was probably most responsible for making it a widely regarded sport and got it underway.
    No doubt about him being responsible for making it popular. But I don't rate his record to that of Lara's or Tendulkar's, whom I consider better cricketers.

  8. #53
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    Those criminals aren't in the team any more and were rightly banned. And if the choice came to it, yeah I would rather support a team of convicts than actually be one myself.
    Don't let me see you supporting Afridi then...


    Anyway, only using performance as measured against peers as a measure of 'all time greatness' is deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply flawed.

    For this reason, in my opinion, Grace should not and can not be considered an all time great player, although his impact on the game of cricket has no doubt probably been greater than anyone else.
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  9. #54
    International Vice-Captain Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabinet96 View Post
    I can definitely see the fun in it, and I guess I do it as a fun exercise in most drafts, but it's just not how I decide my picks and votes.

    Trying to decide how Graeme Pollock's run scoring would differ as a result of facing Sydney Barnes at the MCG in 1909, while at the same time trying to figure out how Jack Hobbs would go against Shane Warne and Dale Steyn in 2013, all while trying to figure out if Sachin Tendulkar would play Bill O'Reiley like he did Warne is too much for me!
    I guess this post sort of sums up why I started this thread. Hobbs was one of the great batsmen in the era when averages started to soar. Hobbs faced bowlers like Jack Gregory and Clarrie Grimmett, so I can kind of imagine him taking on Steyn and Warne in the modern era.

    However, pre-Hobbs, cricket seems a vastly different game, (including statistically).

  10. #55
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    Does anyone understand the footwork back then?

  11. #56
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Well it's too much for me too. But I still have a well founded hunch that Patsy Hendren (on a flat wicket) would smash Malcolm Marshall's bouncers repeatedly over the long-leg boundary. In fact, I reckon that the spectators on the 5th row back from the picket fence would spend most their afternoon ducking.
    Quote Originally Posted by rvd619323 View Post
    Pre World War II Draft

    Cabinet96's XI
    Jack Hobbs
    Cyril Walters
    Ernest Tyldesley
    Eddie Paynter
    Patsy Hendren
    Charles Kellaway
    Warwick Armstrong
    Bert Oldfield +
    Charlie Turner
    Headley Verity
    Johnny Briggs
    (Tip Foster)

  12. #57
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Don't let me see you supporting Afridi then...


    Anyway, only using performance as measured against peers as a measure of 'all time greatness' is deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply flawed.

    For this reason, in my opinion, Grace should not and can not be considered an all time great player, although his impact on the game of cricket has no doubt probably been greater than anyone else.
    Since when has Afridi been a criminal. Anyway he is a tool and has cheated to get ahead.

  13. #58
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    As for Pollock V Barnes, we would have to find out in the literature whether Pollock was any good against drift/swing plus leg-breaks. I assume though that being a left-hander would help Pollock greatly. Ergo, Pollock to make 75 runs before lunch, and before being bowled 'thru the gate', at the MCG, 1909. No rain.
    Of course, this all goes back to my original point that the whole exercise is immensely unfair, since Pollock didn't apply himself for having to face bowlers like Barnes, therefore us judging how he would go against him, based on how he played other bowlers isn't a great indicator. Still a fun thing to do every now and then, though, I guess

  14. #59
    International Vice-Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monk View Post
    I guess this post sort of sums up why I started this thread. Hobbs was one of the great batsmen in the era when averages started to soar. Hobbs faced bowlers like Jack Gregory and Clarrie Grimmett, so I can kind of imagine him taking on Steyn and Warne in the modern era.

    However, pre-Hobbs, cricket seems a vastly different game, (including statistically).
    Yes it was a vastly different game. So much so that I believe that we can be reasonably certain that Grace's batsmanship would not translate to the 1980s. Therefore, and for example, he would not last the half-hour against Malcolm Marshall in modern settings - without significant practice against modern fast bowling.

    However, this 'fact' does NOT diminish his greatness one iota. WG Grace is/was a cricketing great.
    Last edited by watson; 26-01-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  15. #60
    Cricketer Of The Year Cabinet96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Anyway, only using performance as measured against peers as a measure of 'all time greatness' is deeply, deeply, deeply, deeply flawed.

    For this reason, in my opinion, Grace should not and can not be considered an all time great player, although his impact on the game of cricket has no doubt probably been greater than anyone else.
    But how else would you rate a player then, as, like I said, I don't believe judging how certain players would have gone in different eras and circumstances than they ever had to play in is fair?

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