Prince EWS
Global Moderator
Haha yeah, weird situation that. Woakes isn't playing in it either, nor is he in the Lions squad which means he'll probably be playing for Wellington while England are in New Zealand.
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***Official*** England in India
- Thread starter Jarquis
- Start date
theegyptian
International Vice-Captain
yes i think this. In england this can work. pick your 5 best bowlers and restrict teams to below par scores then trott, bell and cook knock it off. For all that I complain about the OD team i think they've got a really good chance of winning champions trophy and the world cup. There are no really good teams around and with no ashes directly before it they can focus their whole effort on the world cup. Lions go to Australia in a few weeks, then the full team have two more series in aus before the WC. They're really putting all their resources into winning it.
I worry they won't be dynamic enough and injuries to the front 5 bowlers but there really is void in world cricket of quality ODI outfits and playing in Australia should counter the spin threat.
Cabinet96
Global Moderator
I can see Woakes shuffling his way into those limited overs squads tbh, a bit like Buttler did the ODI squad here. Especially as he'll actually be playing in the country for the duration of the series
Top summary, and I agree with pretty much all of it. I'm a big Kieswetter fan and desperately want him to do well (**** I felt **** when he got bowled today) but I just don't think him at 6 is working out, bar the odd occasion when he'll come in in the last 10 overs of a first innings.
I too think Buttler would probably be the best man to go with, and definitely the best long term option, but if England seriously don't view his keeping good enough at this stage, then I don't know what they'll do. I would recommend doing a lot of keeping work with Buttler before the New Zealand limited overs games, to try and get him in a position where he can play as a specialist keeper, but it seems for the rest of this series, they'll have to stick with Kieswetter. I don't see the point of him staying at 6 for the rest of the series tbh, as it pretty much seems a waste of a spot. Just for the last two games of the tour, I'd move Kieswetter up to open and move Bell to 3/4 with Root at 5. Just tell him to go out and be ultra aggressive, and if it fails, then you can move Bell to 3 and you've got Bell and Cook pretty much opening anyway. As it is he doesn't seem in a position to contribute at all, so it's worth the risk IMO. Even an innings like this would be a major success compared to his current average output, and he could go bigger.
I just really feel for the lad trying to do a completely different role to what he does domestically, and where he's had his success. Let him have two more chances, at the top of the order, where he belongs and where he's comfortable, and if he fails, then get rid of him for a while. I'll be a bit disappointed if they leave him at 6 on tuesday as he's just bound to fail.
Cabinet96
Global Moderator
This is the key aspect for me. I remember having a debate with a few people on another forum about how good an ODI side England were, during the Australia series last summer. A few stats actually showed that England hadn't scored 300 in an innings once in the predeceasing year, yet had the best win/loss ratio. It was their bowling attack that was so important, as it allowed them to get scores in the 250/260 range in the UAE and against Australia at home and win games, when other sides would have needed closer to 300.
While our attack looks incredibly dire at the moment in India, it's not too hard for me to see how they can go really well in the Champions Trophy. Anderson and Swann back and hopefully Broad fully fit, and all you need is for Bresnan to improve his form a bit and you suddenly have a really good front line attack. In fact I'd struggle to think of many serious contenders for a better front line attack in English conditions. Pakistan have a great spin trio but they won't be as effective in England, and I think South Africa's is a tad overrated because guys like Steyn and Philander are incredible in tests but average to mediocre in ODI's.
Of course, like you said, the back up will be the problem, and I don't quite know what we'll do if Broad and Finn get injured.
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Neil Pickup
Cricket Web Moderator
Lose.
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
There's no way Kieswetter should be opening within the context of England's batting resources at the moment. You're correct in that he shouldn't be playing if he's not opening, however he shouldn't be opening, which leaves only one alternative.
I really think Buttler's keeping is something that should be taken very seriously and developed by the England management. For someone who hasn't done much of it at serious levels of cricket he doesn't look bad to me, although I'm admittedly no wicket keeping expert. When Prior first came into the side he wasn't anywhere near the standard required as a gloveman but he got there with work inside the England setup. I realise that just assuming you can teach anyone how to keep to international standards is a bit like assuming you could call up Jamie Dalrymple and turn him into a Test standard batsman, but developing Buttler's keeping in ODIs and T20Is is the path I'd be going down at the moment. His skillset as a batsman is very well suited to a lower middle order role which complements keeping perfectly. He came into the Somerset setup as a junior wicket keeper and his glovework will get better with more experience. Moreover, it's not like a lot of quality glovework is being sacrificed by dropping CK anyway; he's below average himself.
Cabinet96
Global Moderator
Yeah look, I definitely think Buttler as keeper batsmen is the way forward, and if it were up to me I'd give him the gloves for the last two games. But if they are unwilling to give Buttler the gloves (which does seem weird to me given he took the role in the T20's) then I'd just rather have Kieswetter opening than in the middle order. It would probably mean having to drop Root for Buttler to play as a batsman anyway though, as they'd be a real lack of power in the middle order otherwise, but again I have absolutely no issues with that, and probably would have played Buttler ahead of Root at the start of the series anyway.
Although that would probably leave Samit and KP having to get through 10 overs, so it might not work.
Although that would probably leave Samit and KP having to get through 10 overs, so it might not work.
Daemon
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Watched a bit of this yesterday. Finn is class, bit unlucky with the edges. Besides him and Tredwell there weren't many positives for England though, unless you count Dernbach ****ing up yet again a positive in the sense that he's probably played his last game for a while.
Can't believe England missed Jadeja's straight breaks, that was seriously bad. Ashwin bowled a ripper to get rid of Brez though, WAG. Kohli finally scoring runs makes him more bearable. Straight swap for Rahane and Pujara next game imo. If Rahane's to have a future in ODIs it's not as an opener.
Can't believe England missed Jadeja's straight breaks, that was seriously bad. Ashwin bowled a ripper to get rid of Brez though, WAG. Kohli finally scoring runs makes him more bearable. Straight swap for Rahane and Pujara next game imo. If Rahane's to have a future in ODIs it's not as an opener.
Contra
Cricketer Of The Year
To be fair to Rahane, opening the batting with the 2 new balls is probably the toughest time to bat. He does look a bit out of sorts at the moment though, but I think his biggest problem is not converting his starts, he will have failures every now and then with a couple of low scores but he doesn't have the big hundreds or even the 70 or 80 odd type innings to back him up.
Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo
He has lots of scores between 20 and 55 but he hasn't converted them (highest was 91). I still think it's more practical for India to back him during the Champions Trophy come June, particularly because he did decently last time he was there, so he does have the experience. But yeah needs to click in the next 2 games for sure.
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centurymaker
Cricketer Of The Year
rahane has been disappointing.
probably not even half as good as what his domestic stats say
probably not even half as good as what his domestic stats say
Cevno
Hall of Fame Member
They have made him sit on the bench without playing him for like the last 6/7 months or even more. This has meant he hasn't been able to play FC or domestic cricket either and the odd match he has played, has been a failure too.
He isn't in good form probably due to that reason, isn't a opener, and ODI isn't his best format. He was moving forward well in England, but now looks so hesitant in conditions which are moving less. And when he gets past that because he can't take singles to start his innings as the field is up, he starts playing weird shots.
He isn't in good form probably due to that reason, isn't a opener, and ODI isn't his best format. He was moving forward well in England, but now looks so hesitant in conditions which are moving less. And when he gets past that because he can't take singles to start his innings as the field is up, he starts playing weird shots.
grecian
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
CK opening is madness, Bell and KP have done well there recently, and Bell has been poor down the order his entire career.
I suppose in an ideal world, CK and Jos wouldn't be playing for the same county, but I'm conflicted because they're both big parts in Somerset trying to win stuff (which is an odd concept, but one that is strived for). Both are very good domestically in limited overs, and CK is one of our best County batsmen.
Ideally I'd like CK gotten rid of from the English one-day scene, give up the gloves for Buttler, and really try to become a solid Test player, because in the end that maybe his best chance of an England career. This would also help Buttler, obviously.
I suppose in an ideal world, CK and Jos wouldn't be playing for the same county, but I'm conflicted because they're both big parts in Somerset trying to win stuff (which is an odd concept, but one that is strived for). Both are very good domestically in limited overs, and CK is one of our best County batsmen.
Ideally I'd like CK gotten rid of from the English one-day scene, give up the gloves for Buttler, and really try to become a solid Test player, because in the end that maybe his best chance of an England career. This would also help Buttler, obviously.
Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Rahane is out of form at present, hasn't done so well this season, and let's face it, he's still some way away from being capable against international quality bowling. This is where, contrary to popular belief, IPL will help him a lot. I wouldn't want him to play in T20Is, but he can definitely improve as an ODI opener, and changing him at this stage doesn't serve much of a purpose- but definitely, the thrust on youth has got to end, and they should opt for seasoned professionals (Kaif, Mazumdar, Manhas) when they assemble the rest of the side. He's got two more chances in the series, but he'll need a Jadeja-style princely run to be established as an India player.
EDIT: Thought I'll add this in. What more does Pankaj Singh have to do to play for India? He's as tall as Ishant, stronger and faster than Ishant, a more capable fielder than Ishant and most importantly, in better form. An attack of Pankaj-Umesh-Shami or Pankaj-Shami-Bhuvi would be really strong. India are fielding a weaker attack without him.
EDIT: Thought I'll add this in. What more does Pankaj Singh have to do to play for India? He's as tall as Ishant, stronger and faster than Ishant, a more capable fielder than Ishant and most importantly, in better form. An attack of Pankaj-Umesh-Shami or Pankaj-Shami-Bhuvi would be really strong. India are fielding a weaker attack without him.
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Arjun
Cricketer Of The Year
Maybe Pankaj Singh, like Badri, Mazumdar and Manhas, didn't fake his age. When selections favour those younger, it's an incentive to fudge age.
FBU
International Debutant
Broad is our best death bowler.
Bowling at the death - last four overs
(just done the fast bowlers around the England team at the moment)
140.1-2-1070-50 (21.40 econ 7.63 s/r 16.8) - Anderson
80.4-1-547-33 (16.57 econ 6.78 s/r 14.6) - Broad
64.3-0-492-23 (21.39 econ 7.62 s/r 16.8) - Bresnan
28.1-2-231-12 (19.25 econ 8.20 s/r 14.0) - Dernbach
27.1-0-223-10 (22.30 econ 8.21 s/r 16.3) - Finn
4.2-0-36-4 (9.00 econ 8.31 s/r 6.5 - Woakes
3-0-35-0 (econ 11.66) - Meaker
Neil Pickup
Cricket Web Moderator
Have you done that manually or with a statsguru query?
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
You can't StatsGuru that; she's either lifted it from somewhere else or done it manually.
It's interesting that Dernbach isn't even much chop in his specialist role. Interesting but not surprising.