***Official*** Indian Domestic Thread 2012/13

[Manee]

Originally Posted by Arjun

Look at Mahesh's and Aravind's strike rates. Both under 20, and averages under 25. Yes, they've got high economy rates, but let's leave that to part-time bowlers, shall we? Mishra had one poor IPL, but 100 wickets in 80 matches with an average under 20 is hardly something to scoff at. On the other hand, we've seen Vijay and Harbhajan, with a good IPL behind them, fall apart in the World T20 that followed. Vijay, anyway, is coming off a good Challenger Trophy, and should definitely be a lock now as a T20I specialist opener, with Gambhir (zero centuries against Vijay's two in domestic T20) being completely out of touch.
Can you name better options? You've left out Mishra, Yo Mahesh, Aravind, Munaf, Dinda and just about anyone with impressive T20I figures. Just what is your idea of a T20I bowling base?
Yadav will get no higher than six or seven initially, and I don't expect him to be poor all the time. There's room for improvement. Chitnis can also get more fifties if he bats higher up and plays plenty of domestic T20s. While India's best batsmen in Tests and ODIs may be safer options, they're better off concentrating on their preferred formats. Dhoni, in particular, can hang up his T20I boots.
What use was Harbhajan's economy against Watson and Warner? That may be the match that knocked out India from the World T20. Economy rates don't win matches- wickets in a rush do. India's supposedly best T20I side has been dreadful over the last four years, losing more than they win, with a dreadful record in the super-eights in World T20. Worse, they appear completely and totally clueless while playing T20Is. Clearly, there's too much wrong with such a team and alternatives should be explored. Other countries' teams often play T20I specialists (Dave Hussey, Luke Wright, Nate McCullum) who have no shout at getting into their respective Test sides, so why can't India?

Fair, you've shot down the idea (or at least my suggestion) of a T20I-specialist side altogether- what's your preferred T20I XI and bench? Do keep in mind the Test team needs to be kept strong, and clean.

Your idea fascinates me but I think its wrong in many places. I'll elaborate tonight or tomorrow morning because I have to go out now to a meeting.

[Manee]

You want a specialist T20 side in order to rest the Test and ODI players. I think that such rest is not entirely necessary. Other than the T20 WC which is every few years, there is only 1-3 T20s played on a tour. These games are short and will not impact too much on a player. A long tournament will impact a player, but every few years, this is a risk worth taking in pursuit of a trophy. I wish to have my Indian T20 team based on IPL performances first and ODI performances second. If you have a high quality ODI player like MS Dhoni, chances are he will be able to contribute in T20 (and he does!). The same goes for Kevin Pietersen who used to have a modest T20 record but quickly picked up the game and is now one of the world's finest in the format.

I think Balaji was a good selection for India in the World T20. He showed excellent form in the IPL 2012 which shows that how he was bowling at the moment was suited to the format. The selection paid off as he averaged 9.77 in the tournament.

Ashwin did not have a great IPL in terms of taking wickets, but he has shown in international cricket to be a reliable bowler, one who will not let the team down. Moreover, the career economy rate of 6.48 really does stick out. You think economy rate is not important, but if a team is 100/1 off 14 overs and cannot accelerate because the bowler is too good, they will not have a formidable target. On retrospect, I think Chawla's selection for the squad is justified by the numbers, even though I think he is too poor, off his day, to risk him in a starting XI.

Harbhajan, in addition to Ashwin, boasts the great career economy rate. You argue that he went for runs against Australia but surely you in hindsight must see that this is a poor argument, to cite one game against a career! He had a poor IPL though and I could see the argument against his selection. Mishra would not have been a choice for me though. He went for 8.02 runs an over and averaged 29.00. I'd take Harbhajan averaging 64.00 and going for 7.11 an over, over that. Mishra's great career record is something to marvel at but surely such a poor IPL would be testament to the dreadful form he was in! I can definitely see the logic in having Mishra over Harbhajan though and so I don't think we need to discuss that particular one any more.

Irfan Pathan is another example of a poor selection, imo. He took 8 wickets at 58.12 in the recent IPL. That showed that how he was bowling was not getting enough wickets. The economy of 7.75 confirmed this. He does swing the ball so he will produce the odd good spell but this does not vindicate selection against the figures. The T20I economy of 8.02 shows that he is an expensive bowler and average of 22.07 doesn't exactly justify that.

Aravind was a one-season wonder in IPL. His last four T20s have yielded...
0/69 off 4
1/55 off 4
1/33 off 4
0/48 off 3.

You cannot select someone off the back of that!

Mahesh is routinely taken apart by IPL teams, as shown here. He is a wicket taker, but not enough of one to justify a nearly 9 economy rate!

So who would I have selected? Well, Zaheer Khan had an okay IPL 2012 and is an excellent bowler of the new white ball. He is our best new ball bowler and I'd have him in. T20I economy of 7.63 is not great but not terrible and 17 wickets in IPL 2012 at good rates shows he was performing okay. Harbhajan, Ashwin and Mishra/Chawla (squad member) all have places in my team. I would have put Dinda in my T20 squad based on his IPL but his performance against Afghanistan would have kept him out of the XI from then on. Balaji walks into my squad and starting XI.

7. MS Dhoni
8. Harbhajan Singh
9. R Ashwin
10. Zaheer Khan
11. L Balaji

Yuvraj Singh plays as fifth bowler.

Reserves: Mishra/Chawla, Dinda, ???

The ??? is probably Awana. He bowled well in the IPL and even though Yadav had a better economy than him, this is because Yadav played in a considerably better team that often ran through the opposition and so he'd bowl just to tailenders trying to bat the overs. Yadav could be very expensive and wayward.

The batting I would have chosen would have been the same batting that India chose. Looking at this, Dhawan and Rahane had good IPLs but our first string batting all have great career records and good enough IPLs to keep them in. Also, I don't think Dhawan can handle international quality bowling well enough to translate his consistency.

It is too idealistic to look to change after every defeat. This was the best team we had, they just were not good enough. The fact is that India lost one game, where the batting did not fire and the bowlers wilted under attack from a small target. It happens to all teams, even the best of teams.

Just finally, you say other countries often play T20 specialists so why cannot India. These guys are specialists because they have good, long career records and in the case of Luke Wright, was in good form. Mishra has a good record and I've conceded that over the long term, he should play more T20Is. Yadav and Chitnis are totally unproven - no other team puts totally unproven batsmen in international cricket! As for Dhoni hanging up his T20I boots, I think that is ridiculous, he is an excellent batsman in the format and won us the game today!

[Arjun]

Maybe you'll find these options better for T20? Not really 'your' top six- just lists, and then you pick the top six, and so on.

YOUR TOP SIX   Mat Inns NO Runs  HS    Ave   BF     SR 100 50  4s  6s  
M Vijay         84   82  3 2100 127  26.58 1670 125.74   2 10 181  87 
Yusuf Pathan   122  110 19 2353 100  25.85 1552 151.61   1 11 186 135
Raina          125  118 18 3318 101  33.18 2386 139.06   1 19 284 138 
Rohit Sharma   133  122 23 3174 109* 32.06 2434 130.40   2 21 276 125  
Yuvraj         101   97 13 2259  71  26.89 1699 132.96   0 12 178 119 
Dinesh Karthik 109   95 16 1942  90* 24.58 1521 127.67   0  9 201  45 
Rayudu          75   72 10 1699  81* 27.40 1390 122.23   0 12 156  51
Mayank Agarwal  37   32  2  615  64* 20.50  464 132.54   0  3  51  32

If Sehwag can make it, you've got one more batsman who's got a seriously high strike rate. All four of the top five have at least one century scored, and with Sehwag, five of five. You can then add in at least one batsman very good on the field, and also striking over 125. Mandeep Singh and Mayank Agarwal are the top options now, although Sid Chitnis at seven is a decent pick- at least he's got an average boosted by not-outs, since he comes in so low down- which also explains lack of fifties. Rayudu is another seriously good alternative, as he's also got adequate T20 (75 games) experience. You also have two bowling options in this pack.

Then the bowling options

YOUR TOP FOUR  Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts  BBI  BBM   Ave Econ   SR 4w 5w
Munaf           66   66  1421 1723   78 5/21 5/21 22.08 7.27 18.2  2  1
Balaji          73   73  1451 1840   85 5/24 5/24 21.64 7.60 17.0  2  1 
Dinda           65   62  1244 1434   68 4/13 4/13 21.08 6.91 18.2  3  0 
PP Ojha         81   80  1705 1960  100 4/21 4/21 19.60 6.89 17.0  2  0 
Awana           14   14   324  421   20 4/34 4/34 21.05 7.79 16.2  1  0
Amit Mishra     88   88  1915 2212  112 5/17 5/17 19.75 6.93 17.0  1  2
Irfan Pathan   113  110  2331 2973  115 4/27 4/27 25.85 7.65 20.2  1  0

All except Balaji and Irfan have got economy under 7.5, and every one of them has an impressive strike rate, all under 20. Irfan may have had a horrible IPL, but his T20I comeback was quite good- average under 18, and while his economy was over eight, he has a strike rate of 13- seriously effective when used well. He's also the only bowler capable of batting for T20. Of these, Balaji, Munaf and Dinda are not Test prospects, Awana is still raw, and Ojha, ideally, should be chosen for T20Is instead of Tests.

I would not risk Sehwag, Gambhir, Zaheer, Harbhajan, Dhoni, Ashwin and Kohli in T20Is, as their Test form is critical. Too much cricket in a calendar year can trigger a slump in form, and I am concerned about Kohli falling into one- he was woefully out of form in Australia till the last Test. Besides, some of them may not be fit enough for T20Is in the year 2014, when the next event will be held. It doesn't really help to have them in the T20I squad, as it won't result in instant wins- too many losses in T20Is, including their poor post-IPL performance in the Super Eights, suggest there's need- and room- for change and improvement in the T20 squad.

[Arjun]

Talking of T20s, we could have had a strong North Zone side throughout the Duleep Trophy, with Sehwag, Gambhir, Yuvraj, Kohli, Harbhajan and Ishant in the squad. It's an easy guess why Gambhir and Harbhajan will be missing. So will Rajat Bhatia- although the BCCI won't mind it one bit, for some reason. Sehwag's ankle is injured, so he'll be out for quite some time, and he's chosen to miss the CLT20 as well. Kohli, though, has asked for rest- maybe he's due some rest anyway. Only North and West Zone squads have been selected.

[Manee]

Originally Posted by Arjun

Maybe you'll find these options better for T20? Not really 'your' top six- just lists, and then you pick the top six, and so on.

YOUR TOP SIX   Mat Inns NO Runs  HS    Ave   BF     SR 100 50  4s  6s  
M Vijay         84   82  3 2100 127  26.58 1670 125.74   2 10 181  87 
Yusuf Pathan   122  110 19 2353 100  25.85 1552 151.61   1 11 186 135
Raina          125  118 18 3318 101  33.18 2386 139.06   1 19 284 138 
Rohit Sharma   133  122 23 3174 109* 32.06 2434 130.40   2 21 276 125  
Yuvraj         101   97 13 2259  71  26.89 1699 132.96   0 12 178 119 
Dinesh Karthik 109   95 16 1942  90* 24.58 1521 127.67   0  9 201  45 
Rayudu          75   72 10 1699  81* 27.40 1390 122.23   0 12 156  51
Mayank Agarwal  37   32  2  615  64* 20.50  464 132.54   0  3  51  32

If Sehwag can make it, you've got one more batsman who's got a seriously high strike rate. All four of the top five have at least one century scored, and with Sehwag, five of five. You can then add in at least one batsman very good on the field, and also striking over 125. Mandeep Singh and Mayank Agarwal are the top options now, although Sid Chitnis at seven is a decent pick- at least he's got an average boosted by not-outs, since he comes in so low down- which also explains lack of fifties. Rayudu is another seriously good alternative, as he's also got adequate T20 (75 games) experience. You also have two bowling options in this pack.

Raina, Rohit and Yuvraj I'd all have either in the team or the squad. I really like the idea of having Yusuf in the team, but not after his abysmal IPL. Vijay is a good IPL performer but absolutely failed at international T20 cricket. With 122 runs at 17.42 and a strike rate of 98.38 - simply not good enough and 7 games is a big opportunity. Dinesh Karthik's record really isn't that good in T20s and he did not capitalize on his chances in T20Is. Agarwal's record is nowhere near good enough. As for Rayudu, I would not mind if he was given an opportunity in T20s. He seems pretty good.

Originally Posted by Arjun

Then the bowling options

YOUR TOP FOUR  Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts  BBI  BBM   Ave Econ   SR 4w 5w
Munaf           66   66  1421 1723   78 5/21 5/21 22.08 7.27 18.2  2  1
Balaji          73   73  1451 1840   85 5/24 5/24 21.64 7.60 17.0  2  1 
Dinda           65   62  1244 1434   68 4/13 4/13 21.08 6.91 18.2  3  0 
PP Ojha         81   80  1705 1960  100 4/21 4/21 19.60 6.89 17.0  2  0 
Awana           14   14   324  421   20 4/34 4/34 21.05 7.79 16.2  1  0
Amit Mishra     88   88  1915 2212  112 5/17 5/17 19.75 6.93 17.0  1  2
Irfan Pathan   113  110  2331 2973  115 4/27 4/27 25.85 7.65 20.2  1  0

All except Balaji and Irfan have got economy under 7.5, and every one of them has an impressive strike rate, all under 20. Irfan may have had a horrible IPL, but his T20I comeback was quite good- average under 18, and while his economy was over eight, he has a strike rate of 13- seriously effective when used well. He's also the only bowler capable of batting for T20. Of these, Balaji, Munaf and Dinda are not Test prospects, Awana is still raw, and Ojha, ideally, should be chosen for T20Is instead of Tests.

You cannot separate strike rate and economy rate like you do. 2/45 off 4 overs is a poor performance, 0/16 off 4 overs is an excellent performance. Pathan in the long term will be an expensive bowler and he cannot guarantee wickets at the top. He should stay in the team for the moment in the name of consistency, but I think he will soon become a liability in the format. Munaf frustrates me because his overall numbers look good but he can be a total waste on a bad day - it really is hard for me to say if he should play for India in T20s.

I have no idea what you mean by "Awana is still raw". He is experienced and I have no clue what you mean by the word "raw". Ojha should play all formats, imo. He is a fine spinner. He is probably weakest in Tests but you cannot argue against his recent performances!

Originally Posted by Arjun

I would not risk Sehwag, Gambhir, Zaheer, Harbhajan, Dhoni, Ashwin and Kohli in T20Is, as their Test form is critical. Too much cricket in a calendar year can trigger a slump in form, and I am concerned about Kohli falling into one- he was woefully out of form in Australia till the last Test. Besides, some of them may not be fit enough for T20Is in the year 2014, when the next event will be held. It doesn't really help to have them in the T20I squad, as it won't result in instant wins- too many losses in T20Is, including their poor post-IPL performance in the Super Eights, suggest there's need- and room- for change and improvement in the T20 squad.

'Too much cricket in a calender year can trigger a slump in form' - I'd like to see some evidence for this!

"Poor post-IPL performance in the Super Eights" is NONSENSE. We lost one game and won the other two. All teams lose the odd game in T20. India played well in this tournament.

Also, a poor performance (not that there was one) does not always indicate need for change. Sometimes, the best team is not good enough.

[nsniks]

Disappointed that Rahane is dismissed early. Wanted him to score big. Hope Pujara continues with his good form

[nsniks]

Pujara also gone. West Zone struggling on 64/4

[Dexter Morgan]

Rahane has gone downhill this season.

[nsniks]

Dhawan with another ton, Yuvraj also started his domestic season well

[Arjun]

Duleep Trophy Semis are on. North Zone have amassed 346/4, with tons by Shikhar Dhawan and Yuvraj. Strong team, and will look the part to take the title. One player to watch will be Rishi Dhawan, who may be a decent replacement for Irfan Pathan, once the need arises. They're anyway loaded with Yuvraj, Shikhar Dhawan, Mandeep, Dogra, Ishant, Amit Mishra and Awana. Central will struggle against them.

Already South Zone have the upper hand against Easy, pegging them at 133/6 at tea, with only SS Tiwary getting past fifty.

[nsniks]

Double ton for yuvraj. Too bad Espnstar are showing it on their HD channel, wanted to see him play as its such a joy to watch him play. 4 wickets for Praveen Kumar. Would be interesting to see how he performs in the upcoming domestic season

[Daemon]

No idea why he's been shunned all of a sudden just because of injury, didn't even get a game for ROI recently. Was the only bowler who was half decent in England.

[Manee]

Originally Posted by Daemon

No idea why he's been shunned all of a sudden just because of injury, didn't even get a game for ROI recently. Was the only bowler who was half decent in England.

He should have certainly made the ROI team. However, he is someone I'd want in the Test team if fully fit but if he is a bit unfit and going to bowl 115kph at any point due to fatigue or niggles, then I'm not too interested. When he is up around 125kph though, I think he can be a very good Test bowler.

[nsniks]

Originally Posted by Daemon

No idea why he's been shunned all of a sudden just because of injury, didn't even get a game for ROI recently. Was the only bowler who was half decent in England.

He looked completely out of form in CB series and Asia Cup, Still hope he regains form that he displayed in England in the upcoming domestic matches, want to see how he performs in indian conditions as he has pretty awesome domestic record

[Prince EWS]

Double ton in zonal cricket is certainly nothing to sneeze at; well done Yuvraj.