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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
Would say though, you could probably make any of those teams statistically stronger, but I've picked what I think would win actual matches.
Sure. It's valuable anyway because I don't know enough of the teams. I do think Amla is a better ODI opener than Gibbs, though.

Here's my crack at a World XI

1. Amla
2. Sehwag
3. Richards
4. de Villiers
5. Dhoni
6. Gilchrist (wk)
7. Pollock (4)
8. Akram (1)
9. Bond (2)
10. Garner (3)
11. Murali (5)
 

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
You can easily have Hussey or Bevan instead of Gilly. No need for Gilly to bat out of position and keep in this side. Here is my all varieties of bowling options available XI:


Jayasuriya
M Waugh
Kallis
Ijaz Ahmed
Bevan
Dhoni (wk)
Afridi
Irfan Pathan
Wasim
Bond
Larsen


We got SLA, Chinaman, leg spin, off spin, Right arm medium, fast medium and fast, left arm medium, fast medium and fast. Plus the keeper can bowl seam up too.
 

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
This article is about the difference KW makes to a BCs ATG ODI XI.

Kane Williamson may have just turned 25, but he's already a certain pick for the No. 3 position in an All Time Black Caps ODI XI. This article uses an online ODI cricket simulator to look at the effect that the coming of Williamson has had statistically on teams he's been in, and what this could mean at the gambling houses.

In being elevated to the Black Caps' All Time ODI XI at No. 3, Williamson replaced Andrew Jones, who had been there for about 20 years. Jones was not only our second best ODI No. 3 but he was second behind only Martin Crowe in their era. He averaged 35.69 with the bat at a strike rate of 57.9, scoring 25 fifties in only 87 matches.

Comparing Jones's stats to his contemporaries puts him much closer to Martin Crowe than it does to the other mainstays of the batting lineup such as John Wright, Mark Greatbatch and Ken Rutherford. Jones was a very, very good player.

But how much better than Jones is Williamson? One way to find out is to use ODI CricSim. In this simulation, I went into custom mode and set two almost identical teams against each other. Choosing the preset "New Zealand ATG" side from the NEW ZEALAND drop-down menu, I replaced Williamson with Jones in one team and left the other as it was. Then I hit the UltraTurbo checkbox and left it to run for a bit.

The simulation ran until the stronger team had won 14,000 matches, the first 7,000 wins from batting first and the other from batting second. The result was that the Kane Williamson XI defeated the Andrew Jones XI by 14000-10644 ($1.77 to $2.33, 176 ties). So this improvement by one player alone is worth about 56c to a bet on New Zealand.

This piece of data could be of considerable use to a person betting on BetFair. Should Williamson get injured and miss a match, it's likely that his replacement will herald a significantly lower chance of the Black Caps winning. Even if his replacement was as good as Jones - which is statistically improbable - an otherwise identical team would be around 56c more likely to win. Williamson is that good.

Of further interest is that Williamson is a sufferer of the Martin Crowe effect, in which a young player too good for the domestic leagues but not up to international standard is thrust into the international side anyway, meaning that their overall career stats do not reflect how good the player was for the bulk of his career, as his apprenticeship is factored in. Should I have used Williamson's past 2 years average of 59.85 instead of his career average of 48.02, the margin would have been greater still.



If Williamson did get injured and get replaced by an average player, the BetFair punter has other things to be wary of. In the Williamson-Jones ATG simulation, Williamson ended up with a $4.51 fair value to top score in any given innings. The corresponding figure for Jones was $6.25. This is really what I mean when I talk about the Kane Williamson effect. Martin Guptill opening the batting - in teams identical save for the choice of Jones or Williamson - is paying $5.30 in a team with Williamson in it and only $5.03 in a team with Jones in it. Martin Crowe, coming immediately after Williamson at 4, is paying $6.56 in a team with Williamson in it and only $6.00 with Jones.

This means that, should Williamson miss a match for some reason, fair value for bets on other batsmen top scoring could vary by 50c or more.

In the simulation referenced in this article, Williamson and Jones faced roughly the same number of balls (Williamson 1,087,959, Jones 1,163,021). But there was a considerable difference in total runs scored from these balls (Williamson 895,134, Jones 719,320). This difference in batting approach is reflected in the economy rates of the opposition bowlers.

All five of the opposition bowlers had a BowlEcon 0.2 runs per over higher when bowling to a team that had Williamson in it (their strike rates were roughly identical). Over 50 overs, this is in the area of ten runs per match. Most of this will be the difference in averages between Williamson and Jones, but some of it will be from the handful of extra balls at the end of each innings from the fact that the average Williamson innings took up fewer balls.

Naturally, this gap in strike rate is reflected in the fair value odds of either player scoring a century. Jones, who famously never scored an ODI century despite passing 50 no fewer than 25 times, is paying $62 to ton up. Considering that he played 87 matches, and that the bowlers Jones faced had much lower economy rates in general than Corey Anderson, who is used in this simulation, it's perhaps not unlikely that Jones would never score an ODI hundred.

Williamson, on the other hand, is paying $16.89. So he is roughly four times more likely to score a century than Jones. In real life, Williamson has scored 7 centuries from 85 matches, which works out to $12.17. Considering the bowling in this ATG simulation is far better than the average quality of bowling Williamson has faced in his career, this figure is therefore fairly likely to be accurate.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Sure. It's valuable anyway because I don't know enough of the teams. I do think Amla is a better ODI opener than Gibbs, though.

Here's my crack at a World XI

1. Amla
2. Sehwag
3. Richards
4. de Villiers
5. Dhoni
6. Gilchrist (wk)
7. Pollock (4)
8. Akram (1)
9. Bond (2)
10. Garner (3)
11. Murali (5)
My world XI is something like:

S. Tendulkar
M. Waugh
R. Ponting
V.Richards
AB DeVilliers
MS Dhoni
A. Flintoff
S.Pollock
Wasim Akram
J. Garner
M. Muralitharan
 

kiwiviktor81

International Debutant
My world XI is something like:

S. Tendulkar
M. Waugh
R. Ponting
V.Richards
AB DeVilliers
MS Dhoni
A. Flintoff
S.Pollock
Wasim Akram
J. Garner
M. Muralitharan
I suspect our two teams would have more overlap with each other than with most other people's teams.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
For me:

Tendulkar: Best ODI opener AFAIC. Most rounded player and very damaging. Played tempo better than anyone.
MWaugh: Some fair comp for this spot, but Waugh was a magnificent ODI opener. Gun fielder too, either in slips or infield.
Ponting: Could take a game away from the opposition at #3 like no one else. A+ fielder as well.
Viv: Similar to Ponting. Gun fielder.
AB: Brutal when he gets on a roll. Massive hitter + great fielder.
Dhoni: Good "finisher", big hitter and smart batsman.
Flintoff: Economical bowler and big hitter, perfect at #7
Pollock: Choice between him and McGrath, Pollock adds a bit more on the all round side without giving much away in the bowling at all.
Wasim: Freak, could be unplayable at times.
Garner: Best ODI bowler AFAIC. Near unhittable with his height and accuracy.
Murali: So economical, so deadly.

Always want at least 4 gun fielders in my ODI ATG side. Ponting, Viv, DeVilliers and Waugh are all guns, while Flintoff and Wasim were better than handy. Garner was surprisingly good in the gully for such a big guy. Bowling attack has height and accuracy and strike power. Waugh and Viv can be options w/ the ball but are unlikely to be used.

My second XI of guys who I consider really unlucky to miss would be:

A. Gilchrist
S. Jayasuriya
H. Amla
Z. Abbas
V. Kohli
M. Hussey
S. Al Hasan
L. Klusener
B. Lee
G. McGrath
A. Donald
 
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CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
Sure. It's valuable anyway because I don't know enough of the teams. I do think Amla is a better ODI opener than Gibbs, though.

Here's my crack at a World XI

1. Amla
2. Sehwag
3. Richards
4. de Villiers
5. Dhoni
6. Gilchrist (wk)
7. Pollock (4)
8. Akram (1)
9. Bond (2)
10. Garner (3)
11. Murali (5)
Different people, yes. But it amuses me to see Sehwag in the ATG World XI in one's team and not even in the ATG India XI in another.
 

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
Almost Redhill's first team for me.

First XI: Tendulkar, Jayasuriya, Ponting, Kohli, AB, Dhoni, Afridi, Pollock, Wasim, Donald, Murali

Second XI: Gilchrist, M Waugh, Viv, Hussey, Bevan, Symonds, Klusenar, Warne, Brett Lee, Mcgrath, Bond
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
I'd argue that Viv should always be in everyone's first XI and I'd be 100% right!
 
1 Amla
2 Tendulkar /Sangakarra (+)
3 Williamson (7)
4 Kohli
5 Richards (6)
6 De Villiers (+) (-)
7 Jayasuriya/Shakib/Hussey and a few more like Bevan and Symonds
8 Cairns or even Dev or so many players lay a claim here incl Khan, Afridi and Razaq
9 Hadlee or Faulkner in a few years if he continues the way he has been playing.
10 Bond
11 Garner
12 Murali

Not too much thought put into this so I will not be offended by any criticism. Just want to make a point about the current crop of players incl Williamson and Kohli (and Shakib) who admittedly whose careers could go south of this point in time. But how good is Viv Richards when you factor his career was 1980's? Those are a lot of WSC runs people against really good attacks. De Villiers, clear #2, has a distance to go to pass him in my opinion. Dean Jones, Des Haynes and Gordon Greenidge may be passed by the the later players, but Viv. Wow. Shame his BBL commentary is so ordinary. And the player with the potential to pass Viv, is most likely "Steve, I can pull from anywhere, Smith"; who is not in the squad yet.
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Dear god, the pivotal number 3 spot is being taken by Williamson ahead of Viv Richards. Not sure I've seen such total and utter bollocks in a long time if at all.
 
Dear god, the pivotal number 3 spot is being taken by Williamson ahead of Viv Richards. Not sure I've seen such total and utter bollocks in a long time if at all.
Even when Richards is uncontested for #5? Where he played #5 for more matches and innings than at #3? What "kind of" and "sort of" bollocks have you seen beofre that makes this the worse ever?

But I am laughing that you think think that #3 is pivotal and #5 isn't. Someone tell AB De Villiers he's been doing it wrong. But Williamson at 3 and Richards at 5 made more sense to me than vice versa with Kohli at 4. But if you think Williamson or Kohli at 4 and 5 respectively just say so. But remember, Kane out century ratios Viv comftably by 8.24% to 5.88%.
 
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marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
Williamson anywhere near the team is the first mistake. You clearly don't actually get cricket if you start making comments like that about de Villiers who is quite simply a different type of skills which is why he's better off coming in later.
 
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Williamson anywhere near the team is the first mistake. You clearly don't actually get cricket if you start making comments like that about de Villiers who is quite simply a different type of skills which is why he's better off coming in later.
Average 48 striking at 84 with 7 tonnes from 85 matches. Name the multitude of top order players who make naming him a "mistake"?

Williamson's stats and career history at this point in time seem outstanding to me.

Please elaborate why this is a "mistake". Because his career could get worse? I acknowledge that? I am talking previously played matches at this point in time.

Please elaborate on the AB De Villiers comments. Because I do not understand you, at all. You say he is better at comming in later but that... I had him at #6? You confuse me Marc.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/282911.html That Williamson SR against top nations. Wow.
 
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AndyZaltzHair

Hall of Fame Member
1 Amla
2 Tendulkar /Sangakarra (+)
3 Williamson (7)
4 Kohli
5 Richards (6)
6 De Villiers (+) (-)
7 Jayasuriya/Shakib/Hussey and a few more like Bevan and Symonds
8 Cairns or even Dev or so many players lay a claim here incl Khan, Afridi and Razaq
9 Hadlee or Faulkner in a few years if he continues the way he has been playing.
10 Bond
11 Garner
12 Murali

Not too much thought put into this so I will not be offended by any criticism. Just want to make a point about the current crop of players incl Williamson and Kohli (and Shakib) who admittedly whose careers could go south of this point in time. But how good is Viv Richards when you factor his career was 1980's? Those are a lot of WSC runs people against really good attacks. De Villiers, clear #2, has a distance to go to pass him in my opinion. Dean Jones, Des Haynes and Gordon Greenidge may be passed by the the later players, but Viv. Wow. Shame his BBL commentary is so ordinary. And the player with the potential to pass Viv, is most likely "Steve, I can pull from anywhere, Smith"; who is not in the squad yet.
Disqualified because of the use of "slashes". Also the first time ever someone able to get both his 1st and 2nd XI in one team. You mentioned 22 players in one XI . Lol.
 
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