The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Jager]

There's a guy who scored four and a half thousand test runs, average of 60, 150 first class centuries, once put on an opening stand of 555 for Yorkshire. Quite handy with the bat was H Sutcliffe. And yet he doesn't make the above list of 20 top batsmen, and wasn't picked in the "consensus" England side. I don't know what it is with this forum. If picking an all-time England side I put down Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Hammond at 1-4, and then start wondering who the other seven players should be....

Sutters makes both my England and AT XI's

 

[kyear2]

I think that not including Sutcliffe in that 'next level' list is a genuine oversight, not deliberate.

Of course. One of the true A.T. Greats.

 

[Jager]

I've sorted my ATG XI batting line-up. Choosing the bowling lineup is far more complicated...

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Barry Richards
4. Don Bradman
5. Keith Miller
6. Garfield Sobers
7. Don Tallon

 

[watson]

Some interesting observations re Sutcliffe;

The main contender for Hutton's position was an equally dour fellow Youkshireman, Herbert Sutcliffe, the one-time partner for Hobbs in the actual England team.

"He performed far better than he looked," Bradman remarked. 'He was more at home against pace than spin, but he managed to work it out with courage. He played one of the finest ever innings on a sticky at Melbourne in 1929."

Bradman played in that game, which England won by three wickets. The opening stand by Hobbs (49) and Sutcliffe (a chanceless 135) of 105 was arguably the best-ever partnership in Test cricket on a rain-affected pitch. It set up an unlikely victory when England were set 332 to win.

Sutcliffe was a good hooker and scored more from the on-side, which was perhaps a consequence of being bought up playing on wet wickets in England's north. He wasn't keen on the drive and preferred pushes and edges through slips and gully. It irritated spectators at times, but he could refer to his big scores as evidence of his value to his county or England.

Bradman's Best Ashes Teams, page 223

Incidently, here is that scorecard from 1929. Hammond's knock of 200 in the first innings also deserves a mention;

3rd Test: Australia v England at Melbourne, Dec 29, 1928 - Jan 5, 1929 | Cricket Scorecard | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[watson]

I've sorted my ATG XI batting line-up. Choosing the bowling lineup is far more complicated...

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Barry Richards
4. Don Bradman
5. Keith Miller
6. Garfield Sobers
7. Don Tallon

Definitely unique with some interesting ideas.

I know it sounds odd, but do you think the top 7 is a bit light because of both Miller and Tallon?

I'm a lot more boring;

01. Sunny Gavaskar
02. Jack Hobbs
03. Don Bradman
04. Brian Lara
05. Vivian Richards
06. Garfield Sobers
07. Adam Gilchrist
08. Imran Khan
09. Malcolm Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Dennis Lillee

12th Richard Hadlee

 

[Jager]

I considered that, yeah. The way I designed my team was that it has two bowlers to share the fifth bowling spot - Miller will bowl like a hurricane as the first change but after that, Sobers will take over as the ball starts to get very old.

This will allow Miller to primarily focus on his batting and reduce his soreness by a great deal, so I'd predict he'd sway towards being a 45-50 averaging batsman as he's not being dragged down by a heavy workload.

Barry Richards would (in my eyes) have averaged 60+ in test cricket, and he would have been a great first drop - he's only there so Hobbs and Sutcliffe can continue their prolific partnership

 

[watson]

???

07. Mike Proctor
08. Don Tallon
09. Malcolm Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Bill O'Reilly

 

[Jager]

Bloody hell, it's almost too hard.

My list of bowlers who I almost need to have in my first XI (otherwise I feel like there's a gross lack of justice)

Fast: Larwood, Marshall, Ambrose, Waqar, Imran, Davidson, Procter
Slow: Verity, Warne, O'Reilly

 

[Jager]

Oh ****, I forgot Donald and McGrath

 

[kyear2]

Miller and Tallon severly weakens your top seven, Barry Richards never batted at three and Sutcliffe isn't even England best #2 opener, that has to go to Hutton who I believe was better. So playing Sutcliffe is like playing Haynes with Greenidge even though Hunte was better. Playing Miller as a joint 5th bowler only makes sense if you are playing two spinners who would not be as effective as three front line pacers.
Looking forward to seeing your full team.

 

[Jager]

That's all your opinion apart from Richards

Reckon he would gun it there though.

 

[kyear2]

Its my opnion that Tendulkar, Richards, Pollock, Chappell, Headley, Lara would not be stronger batting iptions at 5 than Miller?

 

[Jager]

Of course they would, but a team isn't just a bunch of individuals, it's a working unit, so Miller as captain and bowling short bursts would be extremely useful. It will allow him to focus on his batting too. Also I think saying that having two spinners is 'less effective' is just plain wrong, especially these days where nearly every batsman is an absolute muppet against spin.

Hobbs and Sutcliffe averaged something like 87 runs per opening stand with near-telepathic running between wickets - can't fault that.

 

[smash84]

Definitely unique with some interesting ideas.

I know it sounds odd, but do you think the top 7 is a bit light because of both Miller and Tallon?

I'm a lot more boring;

01. Sunny Gavaskar
02. Jack Hobbs
03. Don Bradman
04. Brian Lara
05. Vivian Richards
06. Garfield Sobers
07. Adam Gilchrist
08. Imran Khan
09. Malcolm Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Dennis Lillee

12th Richard Hadlee

Yep, this is the team I would prefer minus Lilee. Might want to put in McG or Ambrose in there. This is pretty much Richie Benaud's team isn't it?

 

[Jager]

If Bradman is not allowed I would replace him with Archie Jackson or Wally Hammond FTR

 

[kyear2]

Benaud had Tendulkar and Barnes instead of Lara and Marshall. Marshall didnt even make his 6 man short list

 

[smash84]

Benaud had Tendulkar and Barnes instead of Lara and Marshall. Marshall didnt even make his 6 man short list

Tbh there isn't much between the top tier fast bowlers and I wouldn't grudge Richie for not including Marshall.

After all Marshall was very outstanding for maybe 6 to 7 years of his career. He started off pretty slowly and wasn't all that flash for the first 5 years of his career or so. And the last 2 years of his career didn't go that well either (comparing to himself of course) so you are looking at somebody like Ponting (to take a batting example)

last 2 years

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

first 5 years

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPN Cricinfo

 

[SJS]

1. Hobbs
2. Hutton
3. Bradman
4. Tendulkar
5. Richards V
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist/Andy Flower
8. Lillee
9. Murali
10. Barnes
11. Grimmett

12th Man : Jonty Rhodes

 

[kyear2]

Lillee as your only only out right pacer is a bit risky and places more burden on Sobers

 

[Red]

I've sorted my ATG XI batting line-up. Choosing the bowling lineup is far more complicated...

1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Barry Richards
4. Don Bradman
5. Keith Miller
6. Garfield Sobers
7. Don Tallon

I don't mind this. I don't think Miller weakens it, but adds to it. And considering the other names around him, pretty impressive. Tough top six.

Is your choice of Tallon based purely on the fact that you think he is the best wicketkeeper of all time?

Maybe you could go......


1. Jack Hobbs
2. Herbert Sutcliffe
3. Barry Richards
4. Don Bradman
5. Keith Miller
6. Garfield Sobers
7. Imran or Procter
8. Don Tallon
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. O'Reilly

Imran or Procter at 7 looks better to me than Tallon.