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Thread: The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

  1. #2176
    International Vice-Captain kyear2's Avatar
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    Actually like this a lot.
    Aus. XI
    Simpson^ | Hayden | Bradman | Chappell^ | Ponting | Border* | Gilchrist+ | Davidson3 | Warne4^ | Lillee1 | McGrath2


    W.I. XI
    Greenidge | Hunte | Richards^ | Headley* | Lara^ | Sobers5^ | Walcott+ | Marshall1 | Ambrose2 | Holding3 | Garner4

    S.A. XI
    Richards^ | Smith*^ | Amla | Pollock | Kallis5^ | Nourse | Cameron+ | Procter3 | Steyn1 | Tayfield4 | Donald2

    Eng. XI
    Hobbs | Hutton*^ | Hammond^ | Compton | Barrington | Botham5^ | Knott | Trueman1 | Laker4 | Larwood2 | Barnes3

  2. #2177
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gowza View Post
    I've also got Procter in my XI, but i have barry opening instead of sutcliffe, viv for wally and imran for mcgrath.

    1 Jack Hobbs
    2 Barry Richards
    3 Don Bradman
    4 Graeme Pollock
    5 Viv Richards
    6 Garry Sobers
    7 Adam Gilchrist
    8 Mike Procter
    9 Imran Khan
    10 Malcolm Marshall
    11 Shane Warne

    I get the same R-L-R-L combo in the middle order. for the bowling you've got Imran and Marshall bowling right arm fast, Sobers being able to bowl left arm pace as well as left arm orthodox and chinaman, Procter bowling his right arm fast and offies and Warne bowling leg spin. pretty decent coverage with the ball in terms of variation (not suggesting to use Sobers and Procter's spin all the time but it's there if you want it). With the batting they're all pretty aggressive batsmen. You've got a lot of quality slippers with both the Richard's, Sobers, Procter, Warne, Pollock could also field at slip, Hobbs and Bradman were great fielders to.
    I like this team. Bats all the way down to number 11
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  3. #2178
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    There isn't really anything to suggest that Warne was better than Murali (at least as a bowler).

    And would you like to make a case as to why Imran would be a level below Marshall, Warne and Sobers as a cricketer?

    - smalishah
    Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler, but it would be a brave person who would suggest that he was Marshall's equal or better. I do find this a bid odd because Imran's raw bowling stats are superior in some respects. But there you go.

    Imran can't be compared to Warne or Sobers because their skills were completely different. However, we can say that Imran's main opposition to the No.8 spot in the ATG XI team are Richard Hadlee and Mike Procter. And this would be after a convincing case has been made for the mandatory inclusion of a bowling-allrounder in the bottom 4, rather than another pure bowler like Lillee, McGrath, Donald, Akram, Waqar, or Barnes.
    Len Hutton - Jack Hobbs - Ted Dexter - Peter May - Walter Hammond - Frank Woolley - Ian Botham - Alan Knott - Hedley Verity - John Snow - Fred Trueman

    Victor Trumper - Bill Lawry - Don Bradman - Greg Chappell - Allan Border - Keith Miller - Adam Gilchrist - Alan Davidson - Shane Warne - Dennis Lillee - Glenn McGrath

  4. #2179
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler, but it would be a brave person who would suggest that he was Marshall's equal or better. I do find this a bid odd because Imran's raw bowling stats are superior in some respects. But there you go.

    Imran can't be compared to Warne or Sobers because their skills were completely different. However, we can say that Imran's main opposition to the No.8 spot in the ATG XI team are Richard Hadlee and Mike Procter. And this would be after a convincing case has been made for the mandatory inclusion of a bowling-allrounder in the bottom 4, rather than another pure bowler like Lillee, McGrath, Donald, Akram, Waqar, or Barnes.
    The point is that a bowling all rounder who is an ATG fast bowler adds pretty much as much to the side as does another ATG fast bowler and then brings batting to the table. I don't see what Akram, Lillee, Donald, Waqar or McGrath bring to the table that Imran doesn't while being one of the most outstanding leaders in cricket as well as being a very dependable bat. Imran's bowling is pretty much as good as any pure fast bowler so having him in doesn't hurt at all.


  5. #2180
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler, but it would be a brave person who would suggest that he was Marshall's equal or better. I do find this a bid odd because Imran's raw bowling stats are superior in some respects. But there you go.

    Imran can't be compared to Warne or Sobers because their skills were completely different. However, we can say that Imran's main opposition to the No.8 spot in the ATG XI team are Richard Hadlee and Mike Procter. And this would be after a convincing case has been made for the mandatory inclusion of a bowling-allrounder in the bottom 4, rather than another pure bowler like Lillee, McGrath, Donald, Akram, Waqar, or Barnes.
    And as you say Imran is close to Marshall as a fast bowler. Throughout the whole decade of the 1980s Imran has a better average and better Strike rate than any other bowler (including Marshall).

    The point is that a bowling all rounder who is an ATG fast bowler adds pretty much as much to the side as does another ATG fast bowler and then brings batting to the table. I don't see what Akram, Lillee, Donald, Waqar or McGrath bring to the table that Imran doesn't while being one of the most outstanding leaders in cricket as well as being a very dependable bat. Imran's bowling is pretty much as good as any pure fast bowler so having him in doesn't hurt at all.

  6. #2181
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    The point is that a bowling all rounder who is an ATG fast bowler adds pretty much as much to the side as does another ATG fast bowler and then brings batting to the table. I don't see what Akram, Lillee, Donald, Waqar or McGrath bring to the table that Imran doesn't while being one of the most outstanding leaders in cricket as well as being a very dependable bat. Imran's bowling is pretty much as good as any pure fast bowler so having him in doesn't hurt at all.
    In the case of my ATG team I wanted variety, and I feel that the styles of Marshall and Imran too similar. That is, they are both 'chest-on' bowlers. Lillee on-the-other-hand is the best attacking 'corridor bowler' that I can think of ('caught Marsh bowled Lillee' was a common occurance on the scorecard for good reason). McGrath and Hadlee were just as relentless , but they lacked Lillee's showmanship and aggression that fires up the rest of the side and gets the crowd going.

    I could have gone with Imran as my first change bowler but after some consideration decided that I wanted a medium paced bowler who bowls 'the lot' instead. There are some very good batsman who prefer the ball 'coming onto the bat', and who don't like facing a bowler who moves the ball around at will. So I want a bowler in my team who can capitalise on conditions that are favourable to swing, spin, or both. Add Warne and Sobers, and the attack features a bowler for every type of pitch, condition, or batsman.
    Last edited by watson; 30-06-2013 at 03:04 AM.

  7. #2182
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Imo he is not as far ahead of other bowling allrounders as some would have you believe. Especially when you take a closer look at his batting.
    Last edited by Coronis; 30-06-2013 at 03:06 AM.
    ATG World XI
    1. J.B Hobbs 2. H. Sutcliffe 3. D.G Bradman 4. W.R Hammond 5. G.S Sobers 6. A.C Gilchrist 7. Imran Khan 8. M.D Marshall 9. S.K Warne 10. M. Muralitharan 11. G.D McGrath

  8. #2183
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    In the case of my ATG team I wanted variety, and I feel that the styles of Marshall and Imran too similar. That is, they are both 'chest-on' bowlers. Lillee on-the-other-hand is the best attacking 'corridor bowler' that I can think of ('caught Marsh bowled Lillee' was a common occurance on the scorecard for good reason). McGrath and Hadlee were just as relentless , but they lacked Lillee's showmanship and aggression that fires up the rest of the side and gets the crowd going.

    I could have gone with Imran as my first change bowler but after some consideration decided that I wanted a medium paced bowler who bowls 'the lot' instead. There are some very good batsman who prefer the ball 'coming onto the bat', and who don't like facing a bowler who moves the ball around at will. So I want a bowler in my team who can capitalise on conditions that are favourable to swing, spin, or both. Add Warne and Sobers, and the attack features a bowler for every type of pitch, condition, or batsman.
    What? How is Imran a "chest-on" bowler? I think you completely missed SJS's thread on fast bowlers

    And they are both not very similar bowlers either. Imran was exceptional at reverse swing whereas Marshall was better at conventional swing. And what does it really matter if the wickets are coming from the corridor or from demolishing their stumps? Maybe Lillee's showmanship and aggression got the Aussie crowd going but if you want to bring that element in then Imran was easily the bigger star (in terms of number of people following him) due to his glamor. And as I said earlier that throughout the 1980s Imran was striking quicker and cheaper than Lillee (who retired in 84 though) or Marshall or Hadlee.

  9. #2184
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coronis View Post
    Imo he is not as far ahead of other bowling allrounders as some would have you believe. Especially when you take a closer look at his batting.
    And Lillee isn't even ahead of a lot of fast bowlers as some would have you believe.

  10. #2185
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    And Lillee isn't even ahead of a lot of fast bowlers as some would have you believe.
    Yes, I believe Lillee is overrated as a bowler, and Imran's batting is overrated. Probably why neither of them make my First XI.
    kyear2 likes this.

  11. #2186
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    I don't think that any of the top 10 bowlers are ahead of eachother by any meaningful distance. That being the case, we can really choose who we like from the top 10 and not stuff-up. It boils down to the type of team that the selector wants to create.

    In this particular study the author gives points out of a 100 to 15 ATG bowlers. At the end of the statistical number crunching Imran scores 81.00/100 and Lillee scores 80.76/100 - a difference of less than 1%;

    Blogs: The fearsome fifteen: a look at the great bowlers | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

    In other words, it is just about a win-win situation whether you choose Imran or Lillee to partner to Marshall with the new ball.

  12. #2187
    State Vice-Captain Coronis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I don't think that any of the top 10 bowlers are ahead of eachother by any meaningful distance. That being the case, we can really choose who we like from the top 10 and not stuff-up. It boils down to the type of team that the selector wants to create.

    In this particular study the author gives points out of a 100 to 15 ATG bowlers. At the end of the statistical number crunching Imran scores 81.00/100 and Lillee scores 80.76/100 - a difference of less than 1%;

    Blogs: The fearsome fifteen: a look at the great bowlers | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

    In other words, it is just about a win-win situation whether you choose Imran or Lillee to partner to Marshall with the new ball.
    Would be interesting to see how other great bowlers compare using this method. e.g Barnes, Grimmett, O'Reilly, Laker, Steyn when he's retired.

  13. #2188
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I don't think that any of the top 10 bowlers are ahead of eachother by any meaningful distance. That being the case, we can really choose who we like from the top 10 and not stuff-up. It boils down to the type of team that the selector wants to create.

    In this particular study the author gives points out of a 100 to 15 ATG bowlers. At the end of the statistical number crunching Imran scores 81.00/100 and Lillee scores 80.76/100 - a difference of less than 1%;

    Blogs: The fearsome fifteen: a look at the great bowlers | Cricket Blogs | ESPN Cricinfo

    In other words, it is just about a win-win situation whether you choose Imran or Lillee to partner to Marshall with the new ball.
    So wouldn't you want to choose a bowler who is as good as Lillee and brings significantly more value to the team with his batting and leadership?

  14. #2189
    International Captain watson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    So wouldn't you want to choose a bowler who is as good as Lillee and brings significantly more value to the team with his batting and leadership?
    I am more interested in getting the new ball combination right. With Hobbs at 1, Bradman at 3 and Sobers at 6 the batting is hardly a problem even if facing the best attack in the world. Also, Marshall was pretty handy with the bat and capable of propping up his end while other batsman like Sobers score the runs.
    Last edited by watson; 30-06-2013 at 04:09 PM.

  15. #2190
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watson View Post
    I more interested in getting the new ball combination right. With Hobbs at 1, Bradman at 3 and Sobers at 6 the batting is hardly a problem even if facing the best attack in the world. Also, Marshall was pretty handy with the bat and capable of propping up his end while other batsman like Sobers score the runs.
    What makes you think Imran can't bowl with the new ball? He opened the bowling pretty much all his career.



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