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  • Tendulkar

    18 62.07%
  • Sanga

    11 37.93%
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Thread: How good is Sanga?

  1. #661
    U19 Debutant indiaholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viriya View Post
    Every country has at least one flat deck.. SL used to win test matches in SSC consistently in the 2000s which means the opposition managed to get bowled out twice still. If SSC runs are automatically considered not worthy then we might as well ignore Lara's 375 and 400* among other knocks.. Flat deck in St Johns ending in bore draws..

    Point is you still have to go out there and make runs. Just being a flat deck doesnt just give you free runs or everyone would be making double/triple hundreds..
    I will give you this. Sanga and Mahela have the ability to absolutely pound bowlers to dust on flat tracks. The only way to win there is to go huge in the first innings and then hope the track deteriorates. These two were very very good at setting up the match for a potential win.

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by viriya View Post
    Every country has at least one flat deck.. SL used to win test matches in SSC consistently in the 2000s which means the opposition managed to get bowled out twice still. If SSC runs are automatically considered not worthy then we might as well ignore Lara's 375 and 400* among other knocks.. Flat deck in St Johns ending in bore draws..

    Point is you still have to go out there and make runs. Just being a flat deck doesn't just give you free runs or everyone would be making double/triple hundreds..
    Even with smiley after the line, that's the line you picked up to respond out of that whole post? That was to only tease you the way I tease some Sachin's fans.

    On serious note - Yes, you do need to score runs even on flat grounds but tell me honestly, do all players get chance to play on one single flat ground all the time? Not every one gets the chance but if you get an opportunity to play 20+ tests like Jaya on grounds like SSC then even Jaya is going to score heavily. Jaya has 2500+ runs at 80+ avg at SSC. He is not a batsman who can have that kind of stats in any decent track for 25 tests. You are bound to score heavily if you are a good player and play 20-30 tests on the same flat ground. Every country having one such ground and players occasionally getting few tests on those grounds in their entire career is a totally different situation that frequently playing on the same flat ground.

    About Lara. I don't remove those runs from his stats but I don't consider him great due to those innings. Anyway, my intention was not to talk about SSC here but it seems that's the only point you picked up from my post despite having a smiley after it.
    Last edited by simonlee48; 23-07-2014 at 11:05 AM.

  3. #663
    International Captain OverratedSanity's Avatar
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    While a lack of opportunities overseas for sangakkara is something I truly believe is unfortunate, I don't buy the excuse of him only getting to play short series with not many warmup matches. Sounds a bit of a cop-out out me. Kohli, Pujara and Rahane all were awesome in South Africa in a short series despite the warmup games being washed out.

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by OverratedSanity View Post
    While a lack of opportunities overseas for sangakkara is something I truly believe is unfortunate, I don't buy the excuse of him only getting to play short series with not many warmup matches. Sounds a bit of a cop-out out me. Kohli, Pujara and Rahane all were awesome in South Africa in a short series despite the warmup games being washed out.
    Well, some players may have done well on short tours but you can't deny that playing more games in similar conditions is 'likely' to help a batsman. I said likely and there is no guarantee that you will be among runs just because you have longer tours. I wasn't using it as an excuse for Sanga but it's not an irrelevant point as well. I also said that I do judge him mainly based on what I have seen him doing against all oppositions in different conditions.

    It's meaningless to start taking aggregate averages/runs/tons etc to judge players because everyone doesn't get to play the same proportion of tests in similar conditions. For some players it's not even close, they have played too much in conditions where you can score heavily.
    Last edited by simonlee48; 23-07-2014 at 11:19 AM.


  5. #665
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    Well, some players may have done well on short tours but you can't deny that playing more games in similar conditions is 'likely' to help a batsman. I said likely and there is no guarantee that you will be among runs just because you have longer tours. I wasn't using it as an excuse for Sanga but it's not an irrelevant point as well. I also said that I do judge him mainly based on what I have seen him doing against all oppositions in different conditions.

    It's meaningless to start taking aggregate averages/runs/tons etc to judge players because everyone doesn't get to play the same proportion of tests in similar conditions. For some players it's not even close, they have played too much in conditions where you can score heavily.
    So by that token the bowlers who perform well on those same pitches should be rated highly?
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  6. #666
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    So by that token the bowlers who perform well on those same pitches should be rated highly?
    They do get rated highly. Why do you think Waqar is rated highly? Waqar wasn't great in most venues outside Pakistan due to not able to use the new ball than well in initial part of his career.

    Imagine if Waqar had a similar home and away records as he has right now but he was playing for SA. He would have been rated bit lower that right now. Clue Vern... If a current pacer from SC had Vern's record then I would have rated him higher than Vern. But that's only one aspect.

    Now, If you want to compare Waqar with others then you will compare how well they do in various conditions. Same way I judge Sanga. Let's pick Donald to compare. Donald has great record in most venues and he had a great record even in SC. Clearly, he should be rated higher than Waqar. I am just thinking aloud here because I anyway saw both bowl and I rate Donald higher.

    For the same reason, I rate Waqar much lower than Wasim/IK. Wasim/IK had great records in Pakistan but they did well even outside Pakistan. Not as great as in Pakistan but much better than Waqar. Now if some bowler does very well ( let's say sub 25 avg) in almost all conditions then you got to rate them even higher.

    It comes down to the same thing. Aggregate stats are not going to tell me who is the best bowler or batsman. Waqar aggregate stats are not worse than IK/Wasim but I don't club Waqar with IK/Wasim. Sanga aggregate stats are not worse than Ponting/Lara but I won't club Sanga with Ponting/Lara. I will always look for performances against various oppositions in different conditions. Yah, for flat surface, I will give more props to a pacer's good performance than a batsman's good performance but that's one aspect while judging a player. Just thinking aloud here and these things are subjective
    Last edited by simonlee48; 23-07-2014 at 12:13 PM.

  7. #667
    Eyes not spreadsheets marc71178's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viriya View Post
    I wouldn't be picking Johnson if I was just looking at stats obviously. And I didn't say he was as good as McGrath or Donald - just that he was near ATG/there already.
    Which is complete and utter bollocks and if anything further proves my comment about the quality of bowling having fallen significantly in recent times. When you name 4 bowlers of this period, 2 who are long retired and one who is ****, it doesn't reflect well on your argument.
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  8. #668
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    They do get rated highly. Why do you think Waqar is rated highly? Waqar wasn't great in most venues outside Pakistan due to not able to use the new ball than well in initial part of his career.

    Imagine if Waqar had a similar home and away records as he has right now but he was playing for SA. He would have been rated bit lower that right now. Clue Vern... If a current pacer from SC had Vern's record then I would have rated him higher than Vern. But that's only one aspect.

    Now, If you want to compare Waqar with others then you will compare how well they do in various conditions. Same way I judge Sanga. Let's pick Donald to compare. Donald has great record in most venues and he had a great record even in SC. Clearly, he should be rated higher than Waqar. I am just thinking aloud here because I anyway saw both bowl and I rate Donald higher.

    For the same reason, I rate Waqar much lower than Wasim/IK. Wasim/IK had great records in Pakistan but they did well even outside Pakistan. Not as great as in Pakistan but much better than Waqar. Now if some bowler does very well ( let's say sub 25 avg) in almost all conditions then you got to rate them even higher.

    It comes down to the same thing. Aggregate stats are not going to tell me who is the best bowler or batsman. Waqar aggregate stats are not worse than IK/Wasim but I don't club Waqar with IK/Wasim. Sanga aggregate stats are not worse than Ponting/Lara but I won't club Sanga with Ponting/Lara. I will always look for performances against various oppositions in different conditions. Yah, for flat surface, I will give more props to a pacer's good performance than a batsman's good performance but that's one aspect while judging a player. Just thinking aloud here and these things are subjective
    But you see there is a problem here. How much weightage are you going to give to bowling on flat road surfaces? The amount you are willing to discount sanga for scoring on flat tracks should be added to Murali's count. Are you getting where this is leading?

  9. #669
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    But you see there is a problem here. How much weightage are you going to give to bowling on flat road surfaces? The amount you are willing to discount sanga for scoring on flat tracks should be added to Murali's count. Are you getting where this is leading?
    Different people will give different weight and that's where subjectivity comes in play. Some posters are giving no credit for those runs and some are simply counting runs scores in Pakistan/BD and SSC having the same value as other venues. Both are wrong in my opinion.

    For the reasons listed above( giving more props to bowlers than batsmen for performance on flat surface), most fans put Murali in different league than Sanga. Ask yourself one question. The best cricketer from SL and Murali has absolutely no competition.

    If I have to look for only one factor then personally for me, the greatness is defined by how well you do in alien conditions. A very few actually do it and most of them are known suspects.

  10. #670
    International 12th Man viriya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    For the reasons listed above( giving more props to bowlers than batsmen for performance on flat surface), most fans put Murali in different league than Sanga. Ask yourself one question. The best cricketer from SL and Murali has absolutely no competition.
    Obviously there is no debate on who the best cricketer from SL was. But no one compared Murali and Sanga. This is more about who the greatest ever bowler was (since Murali is the greatest matchwinner Test cricket has ever seen quite clearly).

    Murali doing well in SSC should be considered a major positive considering how flat that track is but typically people discount his wickets at home as those from rank-turners unfairly. I think this is where smalishah is coming from if I'm not mistaken.
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  11. #671
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viriya View Post
    .

    Murali doing well in SSC should be considered a major positive considering how flat that track is but typically people discount his wickets at home as those from rank-turners unfairly. I think this is where smalishah is coming from if I'm not mistaken.
    Exactly. If Sanga's runs are discounted for being made on some of the flattest pancakes going around then surely Murali has got to be rewarded for being a monster on the wicket where batting is so easy.
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  12. #672
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simonlee48 View Post
    Different people will give different weight and that's where subjectivity comes in play. Some posters are giving no credit for those runs and some are simply counting runs scores in Pakistan/BD and SSC having the same value as other venues. Both are wrong in my opinion.

    For the reasons listed above( giving more props to bowlers than batsmen for performance on flat surface), most fans put Murali in different league than Sanga. Ask yourself one question. The best cricketer from SL and Murali has absolutely no competition.

    If I have to look for only one factor then personally for me, the greatness is defined by how well you do in alien conditions. A very few actually do it and most of them are known suspects.
    I don't think that Murali is put in a different league just because Sanga is not up to the mark. I do think that people put a higher premium on ATG bowlers than they do on ATG batsmen. The way test cricket is designed you need to score more runs than the opposition and get 20 wickets. In test cricket it is usually getting the 20 wickets in time that is the problem for getting a result. Also by design of the game everybody has to bat (bar declaration) but not everybody has to bowl so that makes bowlers inherently more valuable.

    I also think that "greatness" probably has (in many cases) to do with which cricketing country you are coming from than your actual performances (Hadlee and Murali being cases in point).

  13. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    I don't think that Murali is put in a different league just because Sanga is not up to the mark. I do think that people put a higher premium on ATG bowlers than they do on ATG batsmen. .
    It's not due to not being up to the mark. Sanga has done well but Murali has done better. In my opinion, Murali is simply the best off spinner in history of cricket and I can't make that kind of statement for Sanga. All this recent talks about Sanga is mainly due to his aggregate stats. I didn't hear anyone talking about Sanga being among the best of the best 5 years back. And yah, in this 5 years, he hasn't really done anything great against top bowling sides but his aggregate stats have gone up and made him a focal point. Murali's name was always up there for most of his career and that's due to him being drastically better than others. I am not saying that Sanga is not great. I am making a different point here.

    I don't think it has much to do with being a bowler or batsman. It's not easy to compare bowlers with batsmen but I will take plenty of ATG batsmen over some one like Waqar if we are talking about who is a better player. I don't think that all ATG players can be clubbed together. We have seen great batsmen, great bowlers, great keepers and so on but all ATGs are not at the same level. Sure, it gets subjective but then ATG concept is subjective to begin with.

    Agree with the point about about tests and need to get 20 wickets to win. Tests are bowlers game and ODIs are batsmen game to some extent. But when judging players, we normally judge them in each category separately. If you pick an XI then you are going to pick certain number of batsmen and certain number of bowlers. Great batsmen and great bowlers, both need to contribute otherwise you can't really win against good oppositions. Despite having great ATG bowlers, Pakistan is yet to win a test series in WI, Aus or SA. Those bowlers allowed Pakistan to win many away tests but batsmen were not good enough to capitalize on that advantage and win test series.

    I get the point about Murali/Hadlee greatness seeming bit higher due to where they come from but even without that factor, their performance has been as good as any other greats.
    Last edited by simonlee48; 23-07-2014 at 04:45 PM.

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by viriya View Post
    Murali doing well in SSC should be considered a major positive considering how flat that track is but typically people discount his wickets at home as those from rank-turners unfairly. I think this is where smalishah is coming from if I'm not mistaken.
    Murali should get extra credit for performing on flat tracks. It's not an easy thing to do for a spinner. I have seen him doing very well on non turners. Anyone clubbing all SL wickets as rank-turners has not seen much of Murali otherwise there is no reason to make that statement. I think this perception may be coming due to SL making bit more flatter wickets after Murali retired but Murali has bowled and done well on enough flat wickets.

  15. #675
    International Coach G.I.Joe's Avatar
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    I'd like to see someone delve deeper into the claims that a top tier batsman suffers from playing short series. If that were indeed true, we should see the batting averages for batsmen follow a consistent 5th test > 4th test > 3rd test > 2nd test > 1st test pattern. And what about bowlers? Do they follow a reverse pattern? Are batsmen inherently more gifted than bowlers that they dominate a series the longer it goes on for?
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