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Thread: Kallis vs Sobers, Donald vs Steyn, Trott vs Pollock

  1. #91
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Furball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KungFu_Kallis View Post
    But wait, isn't this the same amazing ranking system which says Shakib Al Hasan is currently the world's number 1 Test all rounder? Sobers must have been really good then too.
    What does that say about Kallis then?

  2. #92
    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Hall, Griffith, Davidson, Gibbs, Valentine, Benaud, Mckenzie, Lindwall, Miller, Snow, Underwood, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Lillee.

    That's all
    Burgey,

    kallis had to deal with competition from the likes of donald, pollock, ntini, steyn, nel and hayward within his own team. because he wasn't perceived to be as attacking as most of that lot he often had to bowl a containment line - and his bowling's generally considered more of a bonus than an intrinsic weapon in its own right. putting aside the psychological impact on him,

    arguably he picked up a lot of wickets because of the pressure sustained by having a relatively good attack behind him and i can see the intuitive sense in this - and i can debate this point till the cows come home - but i really think, based on watching him bowl quite often, his role within the bowling attacks he has been part of have actually hindered kallis' stats more than the other way around.

    with all due respect, i don't reckon sobers' contemporaries within his team have the same pedigree. i am pretty sure kallis would have been right up there with sobers in the west indian team of 1960s based purely on his bowling skills. sobers appears to be, demonstrably, a better batsman though the sheer amount of cricket kallis has played, in all sorts of conditions around the world, is something that isn't recognised enough. it's an important aspect of the longevity debate

    in the latest series versus sri lanka, kallis was still firing them in around 140k at the age of 36. these are the kind of deliveries that'll be as tricky to negotiate in 1962 as they are in 2012. i have a great deal of respect for sobers bowling skills, primarily because of the regard his contemporaries seem to hold him in, but nothing i've read suggests to me that sobers maintained this kind of penetration in his advanced years.

  3. #93
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    I'm finally coming to the opinion that Kallis > Ponting and everyone else in the last 15 odd years besides Lara and Tendulkar. Still don't think he was as good as Sobers.
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  4. #94
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg View Post
    Burgey,

    kallis had to deal with competition from the likes of donald, pollock, ntini, steyn, nel and hayward within his own team. because he wasn't perceived to be as attacking as most of that lot he often had to bowl a containment line - and his bowling's generally considered more of a bonus than an intrinsic weapon in its own right. putting aside the psychological impact on him,

    arguably he picked up a lot of wickets because of the pressure sustained by having a relatively good attack behind him and i can see the intuitive sense in this - and i can debate this point till the cows come home - but i really think, based on watching him bowl quite often, his role within the bowling attacks he has been part of have actually hindered kallis' stats more than the other way around.

    with all due respect, i don't reckon sobers' contemporaries within his team have the same pedigree. i am pretty sure kallis would have been right up there with sobers in the west indian team of 1960s based purely on his bowling skills. sobers appears to be, demonstrably, a better batsman though the sheer amount of cricket kallis has played, in all sorts of conditions around the world, is something that isn't recognised enough. it's an important aspect of the longevity debate

    in the latest series versus sri lanka, kallis was still firing them in around 140k at the age of 36. these are the kind of deliveries that'll be as tricky to negotiate in 1962 as they are in 2012. i have a great deal of respect for sobers bowling skills, primarily because of the regard his contemporaries seem to hold him in, but nothing i've read suggests to me that sobers maintained this kind of penetration in his advanced years.
    I don't care. He's toured here a million times and I've never, not once ever, had the slightest concern he would destroy us with bat or ball. He may accumulate a score in that manner of his where he doesnt care about his team, or take one or two wickets, but really, let's be honest, when he bowls to batsmen who aren't scared of waist high balls, he looks as penetrative as Yadav did in Sydney.

    Whoever it was(it may have been your good self) asked what competition Sobers had and I listed some of the bowlers he was in competition with. Sorry, but it was an answer to the question which was asked.

    And LOL Nantie Hayward.
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  5. #95
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    I'm not old enough to have seen that lot, but most people consider bowling in the 90's to be the best.
    No, most people on here who happened to grow up in the 90s think it the best because they had posters of those blokes on their bedroom wall.

    You asked who the bowlers were he had to compete with, I'm just listing them. Oh got an answer then responded with a glib "oh, 90s was the best".

    I omitted Trueman and Statham btw. Not sure if Laker and Tyson crossed over with Sobers as well.

  6. #96
    State Regular L Trumper's Avatar
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    Agh! can't believe have to repeat again

    Sobers was the best batsman of his generation. He had damn good series with bowling i.e. close to topping bowling charts. During period from 60 - 68 he was averaging 66 with the bat, 29 with the ball.

    For all those who keep on harping about his bowling SR, what about his batting SR? which is reputedly by far the best in that era.

  7. #97
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    I'm finally coming to the opinion that Kallis > Ponting and everyone else in the last 15 odd years besides Lara and Tendulkar. Still don't think he was as good as Sobers.
    /trollface, surely?

    You think Kallis is a better batsman than Ricky Ponting? Bitch, please.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    No, most people on here who happened to grow up in the 90s think it the best because they had posters of those blokes on their bedroom wall.

    You asked who the bowlers were he had to compete with, I'm just listing them. Oh got an answer then responded with a glib "oh, 90s was the best".

    I omitted Trueman and Statham btw. Not sure if Laker and Tyson crossed over with Sobers as well.
    Don't think he faced tyson in test cricket, probably in first class.

  9. #99
    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    I don't care. He's toured here a million times and I've never, not once ever, had the slightest concern he would destroy us with bat or ball. He may accumulate a score in that manner of his where he doesnt care about his team, or take one or two wickets, but really, let's be honest, when he bowls to batsmen who aren't scared of waist high balls, he looks as penetrative as Yadav did in Sydney.

    Whoever it was(it may have been your good self) asked what competition Sobers had and I listed some of the bowlers he was in competition with. Sorry, but it was an answer to the question which was asked.

    And LOL Nantie Hayward.
    that might be so, in which case he's about as penetrative as sobers

    and nantie hayward's comparable to the likes of charlie griffith. ain't a massive difference between them.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    /trollface, surely?

    You think Kallis is a better batsman than Ricky Ponting? Bitch, please.
    Ponting better to watch. Kallis the better batsman. All this "selfish Kallis" stuff really is crap. Would you prefer him to be wafting outside off-stump with lazy airy-fairy shots because "that's the way he plays"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    Whoever it was(it may have been your good self) asked what competition Sobers had and I listed some of the bowlers he was in competition with. Sorry, but it was an answer to the question which was asked.
    .
    He wasn't in contest with all of them at the same time though, was he?

    Hall, Griffith, Davidson, Gibbs, Valentine, Benaud, Mckenzie, Lindwall, Miller, Snow, Underwood, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Lillee

    Which is surely more relevant when trying to determine the impact on his bowling ranking. Whilst, the list provided of Kallis' 90s contemporaries:

    Donald, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh,

    They would have been direct competition for bowling rankings at the same time as Kallis' bowling peak.

    Lillee, for example, is a complete irrelevance as by his debut in 71, I doubt whether Sobers was reasonably at his peak. He took 40 more wickets over the remainder of his career post 1970.
    Last edited by HeathDavisSpeed; 09-01-2012 at 05:51 PM.
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  11. #101
    U19 Cricketer KungFu_Kallis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    /trollface, surely?

    You think Kallis is a better batsman than Ricky Ponting? Bitch, please.
    Ponting in a nutshell:

    2002-2006 (57 Tests) - averaged about 72

    Rest of his career (103 Tests) - averaged about 42

    If form is temporary and class is permanent... then either Ponting is a class player who has been out of form for 2/3 of his career.. (lol)... or maybe he's just an ordinary player who had a 4 year purple patch?

  12. #102
    Hall of Fame Member Marcuss's Avatar
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    Would take Kallis above Ponting too.

  13. #103
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeathDavisSpeed View Post
    Ponting better to watch. Kallis the better batsman. All this "selfish Kallis" stuff really is crap. Would you prefer him to be wafting outside off-stump with lazy airy-fairy shots because "that's the way he plays"?



    He wasn't in contest with all of them at the same time though, was he?

    Hall, Griffith, Davidson, Gibbs, Valentine, Benaud, Mckenzie, Lindwall, Miller, Snow, Underwood, Bedi, Prasanna, Chandra, Lillee

    Which is surely more relevant when trying to determine the impact on his bowling ranking. Whilst, the list provided of Kallis' 90s contemporaries:

    Donald, McGrath, Pollock, Wasim, Waqar, Ambrose, Walsh,

    They would have been direct competition for bowling rankings at the same time as Kallis' bowling peak.

    Lillee, for example, is a complete irrelevance as by his debut in 71, I doubt whether Sobers was reasonably at his peak. He took 40 more wickets over the remainder of his career post 1970.
    No, he's a selfish cricketer IMO, whether you think it's crap or not. Just as you think Kallis is a better player than Ponting despite my thinking you've taken leave of your senses.

    Edit: on this point I mean, not in general
    Last edited by Burgey; 09-01-2012 at 05:57 PM.

  14. #104
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    The South African team have always had a safety first approach so I don't see how Kallis being cautious can be selfish. It's funny because if he got a quickfire 40 and nicked off people would say it was careless .

    And as an all round cricketer I would definitely take Kallis over Ponting. Not sure about batting alone.
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  15. #105
    Cricket Web Staff Member Burgey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KungFu_Kallis View Post
    Ponting in a nutshell:

    2002-2006 (57 Tests) - averaged about 72

    Rest of his career (103 Tests) - averaged about 42

    If form is temporary and class is permanent... then either Ponting is a class player who has been out of form for 2/3 of his career.. (lol)... or maybe he's just an ordinary player who had a 4 year purple patch?
    I don't mean this disrespectfully, but do you actually watch cricket or just read spread sheets? Genuine question

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