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Lara v Hayden

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Murali is only saying that because Lara smashed Sri Lanka for something like 2 double centuries on the West Indies last tour or Sri Lanka, Murali had no answer (even with a suspect action). Hayden is yet to play Sri Lanka in a test match, let's see if Murali will face the brunt of Hayden's sweep shot in February and if he still think's Hayden isn't better than Lara.
 

Top_Cat

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Who's the best?

Well if you're talking raw talent, I'd pick Lara. If you're talking players who perform under pressure, well Lara is the man who's done it more often (though, Hayden's career isn't nearly as long. I suspect they might be on par just for pure mental toughness based on casual observation).

Technique? Hard to pick a flaw in Hayden's technique and Lara's only mild weakness used to be to deliveries angled across him and moving away. I don't think that's the case anymore, though.
Both play with a very straight bat. Both are VERY attacking players who can destroy you when set (Lara JUST shades Hayden here for pure destructiveness) and can play the solid innings when required.

Shots? They both play most shots in the book, they both love anything full outside off-stump, Lara plays the cut FAR better, Hayden probably hooks and pulls marginally better (both play it VERY well), both are excellent against spin (though Lara's inventiveness and lightening footwork make him superior in this aspect) and both are very comfortable against the fastest pace bowling. Lara is definately the superior leg-side player in terms of balls off the pads and the strength of both their drives puts them on par.

Hayden probably least likes to face genuine swing bowling whereas movement off the seam and cut seems to be Lara's least favoured bowling (he kills anything else).

Both are outstanding in the field and can field pretty much anywhere with both having a penchant for the slips. Though Lara shades Hayden in the slips, I'd say Hayden is the superior ground fielder in the deep due to his stronger arm.

Oh and both suck with the ball (quiet Lara fans, he ain't no Warnie with the ball in his hand! And if any QLD'ers tell me Hayden is a handy medium-pacer, I'll scream).

Overall, I'd say Lara is the superior player but Hayden is a pretty competitive second. I'd pay more money to watch Lara, though.
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You've made some good points there top-cat!

These two batsman are my favourite players in the history of cricket. I would love nothing more than to watch these two bat together, alas this won't happen until they are both over 40 and playing in some kind of tribute game.

While I think if you just compare the two straight up Lara just pips Hayden, and boy...is it close! However, I think Hayden is the better batsman, because he isn't as naturally talented as Lara. I'm sure when Lara picked up a bat it all came naturally (I even heard somewhere that he is a natural right hander but wanted to bat left-handed to replicate his hero Larry Gomes, but I'm probably wrong, although I know he plays golf right handed, although that's not uncommon with left handed batsman). Whereas Hayden had to work at his bating and has spent hours in the nets and improved his game immensly. He has never taken a backward step, and when someone has said "Hayden you can't do this." he says "that's crap" and then goes to the nets for a day and works on it then goes out in the middle scores 380 and proves everyone wrong.

As far as bowling goes, I've never seen Lara bowl, but I have seen Hayden bowl, and he is not very good. However, he did get it together for one pura game for Queensland against N.S.W. I think he took 3/30 off 9. He broke a big partnership and then got another two quick ones. Although I'm not sure how good the batsman were, I think one was Brad Haddin so the quality of the batsman could be questioned;.
 

Craig

World Traveller
Mister Wright said:
Murali is only saying that because Lara smashed Sri Lanka for something like 2 double centuries on the West Indies last tour or Sri Lanka, Murali had no answer (even with a suspect action). Hayden is yet to play Sri Lanka in a test match, let's see if Murali will face the brunt of Hayden's sweep shot in February and if he still think's Hayden isn't better than Lara.
I actually came up with a very good field to counter Hayden's sweep shot and it probably would work, except it would of been a no-ball though for my field placings. Of course this is when a left arm finger spinner is bowling to him.

I will probably will put it down (my field setting) if somebody asks.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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In considering this, we can not purely look at stats because Lara has had no consistent support for the better part of 5 years with the bat. Hayden however, has had top 20 ranked batsmen batting with him.

RE: Lara's bowling. I don't think he's as bad a bowler as some people think. I think the reason that he has bowled so rarely in his Test career is because the selectors don't want him to get injured.
 

JohnnyA

U19 12th Man
Mister Wright said:
While I think if you just compare the two straight up Lara just pips Hayden, and boy...is it close! However, I think Hayden is the better batsman, because he isn't as naturally talented as Lara.
Let me think about that one a minute. You think Lara is the better batsman. But you think Hadyn should be considered better because he's not as good :rolleyes: :lol: :wow:

Oh wait ... you're an Australian ... problem solved ;)
 

Craig

World Traveller
Mister Wright said:
You've made some good points there top-cat!

These two batsman are my favourite players in the history of cricket. I would love nothing more than to watch these two bat together, alas this won't happen until they are both over 40 and playing in some kind of tribute game.
Or Lara goes and plays for Queensland.

Mister Wright said:
While I think if you just compare the two straight up Lara just pips Hayden, and boy...is it close! However, I think Hayden is the better batsman, because he isn't as naturally talented as Lara. I'm sure when Lara picked up a bat it all came naturally [/B]
What rubbish! When Lara first represented T&T at the Sir Garry Sobers International Schoolboys Tournament in Barabdoas in 1987 it was said he couldnt even hit the ball off the square, the year later he came back and dominated the bowling. And these were no-mickey mouse tournaments with quite a few Test players coming from this lot who played in the tournament.

And even if it came naturally, doesnt mean you dont have to work hard. Natural talent only gets you so far, but then you have to use your contentration and play the right shots to the right balls.

And I will ask you this: How many innings has Hayden played when Australia have been in early trouble or played a geniune match winning hundred when Australia where chasing a largish total? How many times has he saved Australia's backside from defeat? How many of his runs been on seamer friendly wickets? How many of his runs been on flat track's?

Sorry but I am going to have to disagree with you on this one.
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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JohnnyA said:
Let me think about that one a minute. You think Lara is the better batsman. But you think Hadyn should be considered better because he's not as good :rolleyes: :lol: :wow:

Oh wait ... you're an Australian ... problem solved ;)
:lol:
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Sorry it was 2/17 (4) & 1/30 (15)http://www-aus.cricket.org/link_to_database/ARCHIVE/1999-2000/AUS_LOCAL/SS/QLD_NSW_SS_19-22OCT1999.html



What rubbish! When Lara first represented T&T at the Sir Garry Sobers International Schoolboys Tournament in Barabdoas in 1987 it was said he couldnt even hit the ball off the square, the year later he came back and dominated the bowling. And these were no-mickey mouse tournaments with quite a few Test players coming from this lot who played in the tournament.
Well, I can only go by what I've read, and what I've read is that Lara was a prodigy from day one, if that is not the case I will stand corrected.


And I will ask you this: How many innings has Hayden played when Australia have been in early trouble or played a geniune match winning hundred when Australia where chasing a largish total? How many times has he saved Australia's backside from defeat? How many of his runs been on seamer friendly wickets? How many of his runs been on flat track's?
You're being a bit hypocrytical (sp) here aren't you. You're telling me I can't say that I think Hayden is better because he didn't have as much natural talent, and then you go and put all these variables in front of me. Hayden's 119 against India is one I can remember, his 119 against Pakistan is another tough hundred I can think of when the team was in trouble. Hayden has played something like 40 or so less tests than Lara so we can't really compare them.

If you do a stats guru search you'll find out how each batsman has done on flat tracks, seamers, spinners, etc:

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/sdb/sdb_compare.pl?playerid=2119&class=testplayer&filter=basic&team=0&opposition=0&notopposition=0&season=0&homeaway=0&continent=0&country=0&notcountry=0&groundid=0&startdefault=1994-03-04&start=1994-03-04&enddefault=2003-10-20&end=2003-10-20&tourneyid=0&finals=0&daynight=0&toss=0&scheduledovers=0&scheduleddays=0&innings=0&result=0&followon=0&seriesresult=0&captain=0&keeper=0&dnp=0&recent=&runslow=&runshigh=&batposition=0&dismissal=0&bowposition=0&ballslow=&ballshigh=&bpof=0&overslow=&overshigh=&conclow=&conchigh=&wicketslow=&wicketshigh=&dismissalslow=&dismissalshigh=&caughtlow=&caughthigh=&caughttype=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&viewtype=com_compare&csearch=lara&cplayerid=1982&comparetype=bat_summary&compare=1

It is pretty hard to split, each has their own better records in certain areas of the world.

Let me think about that one a minute. You think Lara is the better batsman. But you think Hadyn should be considered better because he's not as good
I never said he shouldn't be better because he wasn't as good, I actually said it was hard to split them. I was just going off in my own diluded logic of why someone should be better than another, I have since been corrected, and righltly so. After furthur consultation I have decided that Lara is by far the better batsman as his one-day record his so much better than Hayden's and is overall the better batsman. And because by Craig's logic Hayden has scored most of his runs against the weaker teams where Lara is yet to play a test against Zimbabwe or Bangladesh.

1day records:

http://statserver.cricket.org/perl/sdb/sdb_compare.pl?playerid=2119&class=odiplayer&filter=basic&team=0&opposition=0&notopposition=0&season=0&homeaway=0&continent=0&country=0&notcountry=0&groundid=0&startdefault=1993-05-19&start=1993-05-19&enddefault=2003-10-29&end=2003-10-29&tourneyid=0&finals=0&daynight=0&toss=0&scheduledovers=0&scheduleddays=0&innings=0&result=0&followon=0&seriesresult=0&captain=0&keeper=0&dnp=0&recent=&runslow=&runshigh=&batposition=0&dismissal=0&bowposition=0&ballslow=&ballshigh=&bpof=0&overslow=&overshigh=&conclow=&conchigh=&wicketslow=&wicketshigh=&dismissalslow=&dismissalshigh=&caughtlow=&caughthigh=&caughttype=0&stumpedlow=&stumpedhigh=&viewtype=com_compare&csearch=lara&cplayerid=1982&comparetype=bat_summary&compare=1
 

Mister Wright

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Nor can you use stats to judge cant you Mister Wright?
Excatly, and I fell into the trap that many people do when they try and compare players by saying one is better than the other. I'm a fool - I should have learnt by know that it is impossible to say that one player is better than the other - there are just too many variables, especially in cricket. People all have there opinions and that is great and there is just no one way to measure one player better than another. If someone does have a way I am very interested to hear it.

P.S.

Oh wait ... you're an Australian ... problem solved
I'm a Queenslander first than Australian.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
Lara is better full stop.

Hayden is a very good player & has improved the mental side of his game in particular out of sight in the last few years , but he's not quite in Lara's class.

As for their respective bowling abilities , I remember seeing (or at least reading the scorecard from) a match in which Hayden came on first change & took 4 wickets for the match (it was a sheild game) , I saw him bowl at Calcutta in 2001 , some quality stuff:lol:
 

Mr Mxyzptlk

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Craig said:
Nor can you use stats to judge cant you Mister Wright?
In a debate such as this, you must use stats. However, as I stated above, you must also consider the abstract factors which occurred in the process of gaining those stats. eg batting support, opposition, pressure, length of time playing etc.
 

PY

International Coach
I will always prefer Lara as a batsman because of his fluency, and when you see the flourish of the bat and the perfectly held pose on the cover-drive. 8D
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Mister Wright said:
let's see if Murali will face the brunt of Hayden's sweep shot in February and if he still think's Hayden isn't better than Lara.
Hayden, sweep Murali?
Don't make me laugh.
Any left-hander try constantly sweeping Murali, they'll pay for it in a matter of overs.
If Hayden's got any sense he'll go into his shell and block, like all other decent lefties have done.
even with a suspect action
It truly baffles me how people can still be going-on about this rubbish.
Like it or not, people at The WA University Of Physics(?) who know far more about it than you'll ever do have declared his action legal.
Can you even quote the rule your charge is apparently breaking? Because if you could, and you'd taken a close look at his action, then you'd realise the insanity of what you're saying.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
JohnnyA said:
Let me think about that one a minute. You think Lara is the better batsman. But you think Hadyn should be considered better because he's not as good :rolleyes: :lol: :wow:

Oh wait ... you're an Australian ... problem solved ;)
:) :P :D :lol: :saint:
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
If you do a stats guru search you'll find out how each batsman has done on flat tracks, seamers, spinners, etc
Complete tripe, because you can't use stereotypical conditions in a part of The World as a given - if someone's made runs in England that automatically means he's made them in conditions helping seam and swing. Which in the last 2 seasons couldn't be further from the truth. Likewise, if someone's made runs in India they must be spin-friendly conditions. In England's last tour there conditions at Mohali and Bangalore especially were as seamer-friendly as Lord's and Trent Bridge were the season before.
The only way to analyse whether someone has made runs in certain conditions is to have an accurate account of the pitch and bowlers (ie a pitch-report and a teamsheet). And even then you can't just use scorebook-averages as these, naturally, don't show dropped catches, missed stumpings and poor Umpiring decisions, all of which affect the value of the scorebook average on reflecting a batsman's ability.
 

Anil

Hall of Fame Member
Brian Lara is an all-time great. IMO, if he had handled his rise to fame maturely, say the Tendulkar way, by now he would have been acknowledged as the greatest batsman produced by the Windies, Sobers and Richards notwithstanding. Matt Hayden has some ways to go before equalling him, far less surpassing him.

If he sustains his current run of form, he will definitely be considered an all-time great by the end of his career, but it's way too early to bracket Hayden with Lara.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
naturally talented
This notion of "natural" talent is one I find extremely strange - talent is natural, simple as. There is no such thing as "innatural talent".
What is most commonly inferred by "natural talent" is eye - and Don Bradman's eyes were no more or less good than those of anyone else in his platoon.
IMO the importance of a good eye is overestimated. Most good club players have about the same eyesight as top international batsmen from what I understand about the eye (however, as I've previously stated, I'm no great biologist, so if anyone knows otherwise...) - the difference is almost solely in concentration and attitude.
Bradman's concentration is unparralled. His attitude is unparralled. Some people (Trumper and Hobbs to the fore) were satisfied with a century. They then "gave someone else a go". In many quarters this is looked-on with romanticised admiration.
And I've never heard such garbage. If you can't be bothered making the most of your ability, you don't deserve an exceptional average to be rembered by. Bradman wanted and got one (95.something). Richards and Gower didn't - and in my book that made them lesser players.
Anyway, back to "talent". Concentration is every bit as natural as the eye and speed of wrists, arms and shoulders. I once heard someone say "Mark Butcher needs concentration lessons". The mind, like anything, can be trained but only to a degree. If you could improve your concentration infinately most players would average about 200 in Test-cricket because they'd never get themselves out and so few bowlers can get batsmen out in all conditions ATM.
Technique, meanwhile, is an entirely different matter. You can work and work on your technique until you've got no strength left. You can get it perfect - and if your concentration isn't up to much you'll still not be that good. Very few players have technical perfection. The closest, for me, is Stephen Waugh.
And technique is entirely different to attacking repetoire. It's hard to argue against Lara or Gilchrist here, but they're both very vulnerable in attack if you can move the ball and know where to bowl. For me, a better attacking perfectionist is Mark Waugh. How often do you see him get out because he played a shot wrong? (As I say, everyone picks the wrong shot to play sometimes, if they didn't they'd all average about 200) I have never seen him do such, and I've watched him a fair few times.
This is not to say he never has, just that I've seen him a few times and he never has then.
So basically, there is one way to judge a batsman - how many runs he scores. However, not how many runs he has against his name.
First, for me, is the elimination of luck. Once someone has been dropped, missed stumped or given not-out incorrectly the innings should be over, so I count it as such. Otherwise you get too much inconsistency from player to player. However, you must be realistic about what you call a chance or an error. If someone smashes it straight through short-extra-cover at about 200 kph it is NOT a chance. Nor is it if a fielder gets a fingertip to a ball that there was never a chance of them getting enough hand on to catch.
Then you must look at the conditions relative to the ability of the bowling. If you have three fingerspinners in dustbowl conditions it's a bit different to three fingerspinners on a moist wicket. Likewise, three seamers who can't bowl cut or swing on a wicket with no grass or vaguaries of bounce isn't much of a threat.
Outstanding seamers prevail on all surfaces, however. So do outstanding wristspinners.
The upshot of it all is: in his first-chance average, how many times has he got himself out? If someone has a first-chance average of 22 but he has got 4 RUDs in 6 innings before once reaching 30, he's not done too badly. However, if he has one of 22 in swinging, seaming conditions where every one of his dismissals has come lofting a fingerspinner to mid-wicket before reaching 30 it's a bit different.
This sort of analysis requires lots of information but if you know where to go (and we all do - don't we!) you can quite easily do it.
 

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