Select the WK: Best of 00s

[Ikki]

I dont remember him struggling or looking shaky against spinners. There is no way to prove he would've been bad against top spin bowlers. At least with lillee we have three tests in Pakistan as samples in which he was worse than a club bowler. With boucher there is nothing to show he would not have been as good as gilli against spinners.

We have 4 innings with Lillee. Like with Hadlee who had 5 in Pakistan. And let's not forget, Hadlee did not succeed there, he failed. Both are very small samples.

This is a very good point. I agree. Similarly boucher should also be analysed in terms of his technique, not dismissed with the back of the hand because Warne didnt play in his team.

Well, you need very quick feet and quick hands to stump. Does Boucher possess these? In the World XI vs Australia match Boucher wasn't really impressive against Murali IIRC.

 

[bagapath]

We have 4 innings with Lillee. Like with Hadlee who had 5 in Pakistan. And let's not forget, Hadlee did not succeed there, he failed. Both are very small samples.



Well, you need very quick feet and quick hands to stump. Does Boucher possess these? In the World XI vs Australia match Boucher wasn't really impressive against Murali IIRC.

You say 4 innings are very small samples to judge Lillee in the sub continent. But proceed to quote one match to judge boucher against top spin bowlers!

 

[Ikki]

You say 4 innings are very small samples to judge Lillee in the sub continent. But proceed to quote one match to judge boucher against top spin bowlers!

You're hilarious. I mentioned his keeping to even normal spinners as ordinary and mentioned his technical reasons; those aren't big enough samples?

IIRC Boucher missed an easy stumping off Hayden in that Test. He looked out of sorts. I never said that made it conclusive, but you said there was "nothing".

Keeping to high quality spinners is the hardest thing to do for a keeper and just assuming he'd succeed is a bit of a stretch since he doesn't even have the tools. You could argue he'd learn, but that's another discussion for another time.

Lillee on the other hand possessed all the tools to succeed in the sub-continent. He could hit the seam, he could swing, he could use cutters, etc. He just didn't play there near enough. It's not an apt comparison; you simply made a lazy cheap-shot.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Ridley Jacobs in tears right now.

 

[bagapath]

You're hilarious. I mentioned his keeping to even normal spinners as ordinary and mentioned his technical reasons; those aren't big enough samples? .

I dont buy those "technical flaws" at all. He was/is terrific a WK who didnt even have the disadvantage of Gilly's height. there is nothing that I have seen or read of him that shows me he is less that great behind the stumps.

IIRC Boucher missed an easy stumping off Hayden in that Test. He looked out of sorts. I never said that made it conclusive, but you said there was "nothing".

It is absolutely "nothing". If you claim that one mistake is the "something" I am looking for, then I will say lillee's three tests in pakistan is "everything" I need to know about his sub continental bowling skills. So stop being silly and dont ever bring it up.

Keeping to high quality spinners is the hardest thing to do for a keeper and just assuming he'd succeed is a bit of a stretch since he doesn't even have the tools. You could argue he'd learn, but that's another discussion for another time.

Bowling in the sub continent is the hardest thing for a fast bowler. too many have perished there. its a bit of a stretch to assume lillee would have succeeeded there simple because he was successfull in australia and england. there is nothing to prove he would have done well there. what little we have is very bad for you that you are dismissing it in a hurry.

Lillee on the other hand possessed all the tools to succeed in the sub-continent. He could hit the seam, he could swing, he could use cutters, etc. He just didn't play there near enough. It's not an apt comparison; you simply made a lazy cheap-shot.

Warne had all the tools for a spinner too. he had spin, dip, curve, line and length and he was butchered in India. there is a possibility lillee would have gone back with his tail between his legs very much like shane.

Let me me come straight. I am willing to assume Lillee would have succeeded in the sub continent. I am also willing to assume Boucher would have kept superbly against warne and mcgill like gilly and healy. But there is a possibility that they both would have failed in these aspects. You are assuming lillee is the greatest ever ignoring the small sample exposing his weakness in the sub continent because he is an aussie and you put down boucher without enough evidence because he is not. very unfair dude. be consistent.

 

[bagapath]

BTW Ikki... when are you becoming a full fledged lawyer? can I shoot your court room proceedings for a documentary?

 

[Ikki]

I dont buy those "technical flaws" at all. He was/is terrific a WK who didnt even have the disadvantage of Gilly's height. there is nothing that I have seen or read of him that shows me he is less that great behind the stumps.

He wasn't a terrific keeper, really. Just a solid one. I recall Kirmani saying that Gilchrist was the best by far, even though Boucher was second. I agree with him.

It is absolutely "nothing". If you claim that one mistake is the "something" I am looking for, then I will say lillee's three tests in pakistan is "everything" I need to know about his sub continental bowling skills. So stop being silly and dont ever bring it up.

I never relied on that 1 test. As I said, S.Africa have had spinners before and he's only been decent and nothing more. Ironically, if few tests are your problem, then Lillee's test, conversely, shouldn't be a problem for you to rate him higher.

Bowling in the sub continent is the hardest thing for a fast bowler. too many have perished there. its a bit of a stretch to assume lillee would have succeeeded there simple because he was successfull in australia and england. there is nothing to prove he would have done well there. what little we have is very bad for you that you are dismissing it in a hurry.

Bowling against Pakistan in Pakistan was very hard. Sri Lanka were minnows and India weren't especially hard as the Indians were not good players of high-quality pace.

It is not really a stretch at all; since he was as good as all those other bowlers elsewhere and had all their strengths. And we keep repeating, Hadlee didn't succeed against Pakistan if you wish to hold that standard.

Warne had all the tools for a spinner too. he had spin, dip, curve, line and length and he was butchered in India. there is a possibility lillee would have gone back with his tail between his legs very much like shane.

Warne was never really fit against India and Lillee never played them. Your post is trolling.

Let me me come straight. I am willing to assume Lillee would have succeeded in the sub continent. I am also willing to assume Boucher would have kept superbly against warne and mcgill like gilly and healy. But there is a possibility that they both would have failed in these aspects. You are assuming lillee is the greatest ever ignoring the small sample exposing his weakness in the sub continent because he is an aussie and you put down boucher without enough evidence because he is not. very unfair dude. be consistent.

You are ignoring that the two possibilities are NOT equally probable. Boucher was not more than decent against the spinners he did face and overall merely solid. Yet you are assuming his success is as likely as Lillee's. Lillee on the other hand was an all-time great and beat the best handsomely. He is lauded as the best by the men in question and all others during this time.

I am consistent, the problem is the two are not the same and hence have completely different likelihoods of success. Mentioning something has a possibility adds nothing to the debate; it's a possibility I could score a century against Lillee, it just isn't very probable.

BTW Ikki... when are you becoming a full fledged lawyer? can I shoot your court room proceedings for a documentary?

I dunno to be honest. Life gets in the way; having a lot of bother at the moment, wondering if whether finishing the degree is in my best interests at the moment.

 

[bagapath]

I dunno to be honest. Life gets in the way; having a lot of bother at the moment, wondering if whether finishing the degree is in my best interests at the moment.

good luck mate. you are an enterprising guy. things would work out well for you. cheers.

BTW, if kirmani says boucher is second behind Gilly (which sounds fair) then he would be much more than pretty good against any sort of bowling. that is enough to not bother with his keeping too much.

and if you hadnt got this from my earlier posts then let me spell it out clearly. lillee would make it to top 5 fast bowlers of all time. boucher would make it to the top 10. which means both could be successful anywhere in the world in all sorts of cricketing situations.

 

[Ikki]

good luck mate. you are an enterprising guy. things would work out well for you. cheers.

BTW, if kirmani says boucher is second behind Gilly (which sounds fair) then he would be much more than pretty good against any sort of bowling. that is enough to not bother with his keeping too much.

and if you hadnt got this from my earlier posts then let me spell it out clearly. lillee would make it to top 5 fast bowlers of all time. boucher would make it to the top 10. which means both could be successful anywhere in the world in all sorts of cricketing situations.

Thanks for your compliment.

I am not sure Kirmani agrees with you though:

'Quality 'keeping comes with quality spinners'

Obviously, the quality of a wicketkeeper is judged when he is standing up to the wickets. Anybody can stop the fastest of balls. Standing behind, the keeper has enough time to move and stop the ball. But for a spinner, only a fraction of a second is available to collect the ball and complete the stumping.

The current era seems to have forgotten the importance of this vital link. You can only have quality wicketkeeping when you have quality spinners. The quality, as a result, has deteriorated, and that, more than anything else, is the reason behind the lack of quality keepers.

Who would you rate the best 'keeper in world cricket at present?

Adam Gilchrist of Australia is the best by far. He has been a gifted wicketkeeper right from the grass root level. Rodney Marsh and the Australian Cricket Academy have trained him. His performance says it all. Of course, he has one of the best orthodox leg spinners in the world in Shane Warne to keep wickets to.

Mark Boucher is the second best, though I would not put him as world-class. But, at the moment, Adam Gilchrist is the best.