*Official* South Africa in England Thread

[Rik]

I would say that Gough lifts an International team with his mere prescence more than any other player.

Again, I ask who would you rather face - Kirtley or Gough?

I would hate to face either, but Kirtley is a very odd bowler to face. He's accurate, he's quick, he swings the ball. I'm not sure Gough is the same bowler he was before, Durham are hardly the best batting side in England.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

He didn't do too badly in the Natwest Series though. I think it's ridiculous to put Kirtley in a team ahead of a clearly fit Gough. Even if he isn't the same bowler which he was, we would never know unless he plays Test cricket again. Personally, I think that he's very close to a return to his best.

 

[Rik]

He didn't do too badly in the Natwest Series though. I think it's ridiculous to put Kirtley in a team ahead of a clearly fit Gough. Even if he isn't the same bowler which he was, we would never know unless he plays Test cricket again. Personally, I think that he's very close to a return to his best.

I'm just warey about Gough, he's been out for so long and he can only take one wicket against Durham and his average this season is 11 wickets 31 from 4 games. I don't think you should give someone their Test place back just on past record. Kirtley is a bowler I rate very highly and he is constantly being messed around by the selectors to boot. I wouldn't take ODI performances as proof he is back to his best. Remember he may have been England's best bowler 2 years ago, but now? Oh well, I'd still take him over Harmison

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

ODI form is still some sort of indication of International form. Domestic form can't be the only basis for selection. Look at a Stuart Williams or a Mahendra Nagamootoo or even Graeme Hick - they've had some amazing form seasons and then proceeded to do crap on call or recall. I haven't actually seen Gough bowl since his return, but I haven't heard a negative report of his bowling as yet. From what I've heard he seems in good form and his figures seem to reflect that.

As I said before, we'll never know if he still has 'it' as a Test bowler if he isn't tried at Test level. If he's fit, then there's no logical reason not to play him.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Re Kirtley: I have a very high rating of him. I'm a big fan ever since I saw him bowl at the death of a Norwich Union game in 2001, with good economy and thought. However, I think that he has more to offer England in ODI cricket at this point in time. I would pick him over Harmison though, but when Johnson is fit, there just won't be room with Giles, Anderson, Gough and Johnson being the 4 bowlers. Also, Jones will return at some point.

 

[Rik]

Fair enough

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Fair enough

I win.

 

[Rik]

I know what's on Kirtley's mind...he knows he's going to be 12th man again so he's busy working out how he's going to get from Edgebaston to wherever Sussex are playing in the fastest possible time and who he's got to buy a pint for when he takes their place...

 

[Rik]

I win.

Nope, you didn't. I just accepted you have a valid point. There's no winning or loosing...:P

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I know what's on Kirtley's mind...he knows he's going to be 12th man again so he's busy working out how he's going to get from Edgebaston to wherever Sussex are playing in the fastest possible time and who he's got to buy a pint for when he takes their place...

Or he could be looking ahead to breaking Bichel's 12th man record.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

There's no winning or loosing...:P

Perhaps, but I need something to make me feel special.

 

[Langeveldt]

So why are you miffed?

Who would you have selected, and what reason can you give for leaving out the people you leave out in order to select them?

Thorpe in for McGrath

N.De Groot in for Harmison... Anyone....PLEASE!

 

[Mr. P]

anyone? even robert key?

 

[marc71178]

As I said before, we'll never know if he still has 'it' as a Test bowler if he isn't tried at Test level. If he's fit, then there's no logical reason not to play him.

Especially with Hoggard and Caddick both out. We need an experienced head in there when playing against the better sides.

 

[marc71178]

Thorpe in for McGrath

N.De Groot in for Harmison... Anyone....PLEASE!

I asked for reasons not names. Just putting names means jack all unless you can back it up with Bona Fide resaons. Note these reasons should really include reasons for dropping people, not just selecting others.

 

[Andre]

Thought I may as well turn this into the Series thread.

Assuming Kallis is out of the first Test, here is the line-up I would play as South Africa.

Smith (c)
Gibbs
Kirsten
Rudolph
McKenzie
Boucher
Pollock
Adams
Zondeki
Pretorius
Ntini.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

That's a very weak tail.

 

[Langeveldt]

I asked for reasons not names. Just putting names means jack all unless you can back it up with Bona Fide resaons. Note these reasons should really include reasons for dropping people, not just selecting others.

Okay...

Thorpe in for McGrath....

I know McGrath did very well against Zim, but I honestly think when push comes to shove, Thorpe will score more runs in a test match environment against top class opposition..

Saggers or Martin or Silverwood or Cork or Kabir Ali for Harmison...

Someone with a modicum of control, such as the above are more likely to expose flaws in SA batting like Herschelle Gibbs getting bowled through the gate, than a bang it in and hope merchant such as Harmison, especially if it swings in English conditions...

 

[marc71178]

And what about next time Thorpe gives up and walks away?

There has been nothing that McGrath has done so far that can mean he's dropped, and to do so would be seen as very very poor man management.

Similarly with Harmison - if they stick with him after the Ashes, when things didn't go as well as they could've done (figures-wise, you still have to remember that in his career to date, he's outperformed the English attack), then they surely cannot justify dropping him for another untried bowler (who is clearly not the same type of bowler as he is) when he starts to get better results.

Again dropping him would be very poor man management.

 

[Rik]

(figures-wise, you still have to remember that in his career to date, he's outperformed the English attack)

You keep saying that but a Test average of 31 including cheap wickets against a weak Zimbabwe is hardly impressive. Lately the England attack have out-bowled him. Add to that his average in Australia, 50, was one of the worst, and your tired arguement looses a lot of it's bravado. Where are these better figures? Oh yes, Zimbabwe...I forgot. Sorry, I thought after your telling us that Johnson's wickets mean nothing because they were taken against Zimbabwe...oh hang on, your saying here that McGrath must be picked because of his runs...all against Zimbabwe! I'm confused here...you seem to be too.