*Official* NatWest Series: ENG v SA v ZIM

[Neil Pickup]

Fancy responding to any of my points, Chris?

 

[Eclipse]

But with Warne, he doesn't go at that many runs per over because he's bowling tightly.

4-56 suggests the bowling is loose and batsmen are cashing in.

Either that or the spinnner's bowled 4 good balls and 56 poor ones, but since he "created chances" that doesn't appear to be the case.

4-56 is inconsistent bowling.

Bull**** you can go for 56 runs in 10 overs without actualy doing anyting wrong if the batting is good enough. I have seen it pelenty of times with Gilly and Ponting comming down the wicket and making the ball into a half volly etc...

56 runs in ten overs is not that bad and in some One Day Matches that would even be considerd economical.

And Warne was not allways economical the last One Day match he played against England at the MCG he was quite expensive but he was bowling good balls and In the end despite being expensive he got the match winning wickets of Vaughan and Stewart.

We would have lost if we had a captain like you who would have taken Warne off when he was getting hit around.

 

[chris.hinton]

1) Get me a reliable source and I might believe you. Until then, you will find Alastair Campbell's attitude towards the BBC is marginally better than mine. Maybe several seasons of excellent performances in county cricket and a good spell at the Academy are more accurate reasons?

2) Fair enough, you just didn't make yourself clear, though don't judge him until the end of the SA Series.

3) Five years? And you can state categorically that McGrath's not up to it after five ODIs? You haven't explained why you decided that "Rikki Clarke needs to be dropped because he cannot cut it and has no sign of cutting it either" after the Pakistan match. Or why he could be great - as I pointed out last time, there are several other English players who have as much potential...

4) Do you want to actually read what I wrote, and respond to that, rather than launch off at a complete tangent with the usual diatribe? I said that Giles is not used to take wickets. Left-arm spin bowled over the wicket is never going to take wickets. Not once did I say that he ought to be used like that, in fact if you had read my report on the SA game at Lord's, I said, "Ashley Giles - STILL going over the wicket and creating as much danger for the batsman as Rikki Clarke would to Glenn McGrath's bowling average - proceeded to give South Africa the initiative back on a silver plate with all the trimmings, and several desserts". Giles' performances are more than adequate for the roles that he is told to play by the selectors, and the field placings he is given - with so many fielders back, it's very hard to go at less than a run-a-ball in ODIs.

And I would quite like to know what an attulate is. A bowler can only bowl as instructed by the captain/management - when Giles is (rarely) used in an attacking role, he justifies it, and I'd love to see it more often.

As for 0/18 or 4/56, personally I'd kill several times over for either of those figures. The problem is that most spinners in this country would end up with 0/56 as they bowl far, far, far too much crap to be useful as attacking weapons so for every 4/20 you get, you'll have as many 0/80 or worse.

So, next time you have an argument, answer the points I raise and not the ones that you wanted me to raise, and you might get somewhere.

Fair Enough you have made your points but After watching Rikki Clarke against Zimbabwe i think he can be a good prospect plus the fact he is 21?

I must have misread you on Ashley Giles, the problem is that he too flat and Defensive

 

[chris.hinton]

How will you give youngsters more chances when 1 spot is now inked in for 5 years?

Clarke is 21? plus there are 14 other spots in the squad



Why do spinners have to be wicket-takers in One Day Cricket? Why not containers.

If a pace bowler bowls tightly but doesn't take many wickets (similar to what Flintoff has done in the last 6 months) he's praised, so why not if a spinner does the same?

Pace Bowlers can do both, But i perfer if spinner attack and let the Pace Bowlers Contain and Defend, Why Bowl flat you might as well bowl medium pace

As one person said about flat spin bowling it Seam Bowling out of the back of your hand and that is correct?


Early 20th Century attitude? Why do they have to attack not defend?

If you Defend than you will break down in the end never take wickets and team will distroy you

 

[chris.hinton]

Originally posted by marc71178
This is one day cricket. If a bowler concedes so few runs, the pressure is on the batsmen to try and score quickly, making them more risky against the other bowlers.

If a bowler went at 5.6 per over, it is poor bowling, and the "chances" created will be in the main from poor batting rather than good bowling.


Rubbish marc if you go for 5.5 an over and take 5 wickets it great bowling? because half the team as been removed






Ooh personal insults - great.

I won't dignify this with a response of any sort, except to say Rik and I may disagree on a lot of things, but we don't resort to that sort of post.

Rubbish marc if you go for 5.5 an over and take 5 wickets it great bowling? because half the team as been removed


Yeah right i never insulted you, if you take that offesively then you are not a man?

 

[chris.hinton]

read this this comes from the best Spin coach EVER

http://www.channel4.com/sport/cricket/tv/rr_15.html

 

[Eclipse]

marc the best spinners and coaches allways encourage youngsters to be aggresive and take risks with there bowling thats what seperates the mediocer spin bowlers from the best spin bowlers. The best develope there game by taking risks and often doing so despite being smashed around.

Surley the fact that people like Warne, Jenner and even Murili have critersized the coaching and development of Spinners in England must tell you somthing. I cant understand why many English coaches continue to beleve they are right and Jenner is wrong.

 

[chris.hinton]

marc the best spinners and coaches allways encourage youngsters to be aggresive and take risks with there bowling thats what seperates the mediocer spin bowlers from the best spin bowlers. The best develope there game by taking risks and often doing so despite being smashed around.

Surley the fact that people like Warne, Jenner and even Murili have critersized the coaching and development of Spinners in England must tell you somthing. I cant understand why many English coaches continue to beleve they are right and Jenner is wrong.

At last! someone who think the same as me thanks Eclipse

 

[V Reddy]

That was main reason why BCCI has banned U-17 One day cricket in India as the spinners were bowling flat instead of flighting.

 

[marc71178]

Bull**** you can go for 56 runs in 10 overs without actualy doing anyting wrong if the batting is good enough.

If you're consistently bowling wicket-taking balls, you will not go for 56 in 10 overs no matter how good the batting is.

We would have lost if we had a captain like you who would have taken Warne off when he was getting hit around.

If I had a bowler of Warne's class, I wouldn't take him off, especially if taking wickets.

 

[marc71178]

Fair Enough you have made your points but After watching Rikki Clarke against Zimbabwe i think he can be a good prospect plus the fact he is 21?

Look at him against SA and Pakistan (who actually have decent bowling attacks and batsmen, not basing him on one game vs. Zimbabwe!

I must have misread you on Ashley Giles, the problem is that he too flat and Defensive

So, in a game where the main aim is to stop the opponents scoring, Giles' problem is that he's defensive?

 

[marc71178]

I still cannot see what the problem with Giles is - he is bowling to order, and keeping the runs down pretty well, yet all he gets is flack.

Now if Gareth Batty were bowling and getting these sorts of figures - would Chris be moaning about him?...

 

[marc71178]

Yeah right i never insulted you, if you take that offesively then you are not a man?

I never said I took offense, just realised that when you resort to personal insults, it's generally because you're losing the argument!

 

[Eclipse]

If you're consistently bowling wicket-taking balls, you will not go for 56 in 10 overs no matter how good the batting is.

Bowlers cant bowl wicket taking balls every ball. Warne couldent no one can.
I only takes 5-6 balls for somones figures to be distroyed by somone like Gilly and they dont necisarily have to be bad balls.

If I had a bowler of Warne's class, I wouldn't take him off, especially if taking wickets.

He was not taking wickets at the start he was just being expensive.

What if it was not Warne? I suppose you would take the guy straight off and you would never know if he was good enough?

Remember Warne got totaly smashed on his debute and in his first few matches.
If he was English he porobably would have been droped and never got another game.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If he was English he porobably would have been droped and never got another game.

Hence they persisted for a while with Dawson and continue with Clarke....right...:rolleyes:

 

[Eclipse]

Hence they persisted for a while with Dawson and continue with Clarke....right...:rolleyes:

Warne got thrashed and I mean thrashed much worse than what happend to Dawson.

Any way do you really think Dawson will get another game?

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Any way do you really think Dawson will get another game?

You never know, hell migh freeze over...

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Back to the topic at hand...
England win the toss and elect to bat.

55/2 after 17 overs.

Tresco's still there on 30*
A McGrath 15*

Pollock up to his old tricks again....7-4-5-1.

 

[chris.hinton]

Marc i WOULD moan if batty did that

 

[Neil Pickup]

I don't recall your being too critical of Gareth Batty being hammered all around in his brief appearances down under :P

Chris, nobody is saying that spinners should always be defensive in ODIs.

Your suggestion that pace bowlers play the containment role and the spinners attack is laughable when used in context with the current English ODI side. James Anderson, Darren Gough and Richard Johnson are not containment bowlers and will go for as many when trying to keep it down - they won't bowl the unplayables either.

The simple facts at present are that we don't have a wicket taking spinner, we have four excellent (if inconsistent) quicks, so Giles can tie down an end as a counterweight.

Oh, Terry Jenner is in charge of the ECB Spin programme. The problems are at club level, not Internationally - and I'm yet to see a better option for spin bowling than Ashley.