Pietersen: will he become an all time great ?

[Richard]

Somebody is awfully bitter

What exactly do you mean by 'the modern era', I assumed you meant from 2000 onwards but you must not if you say Ponting averages 72, unless it was an exaggeration. FTR Ponting averages 65 in this decade, the second highest for batsmen who have played more than 20 innings.

I think it's since 2002 that he averages 72. I'm not sure what he has to do, averaging 72 over 6 years is pretty damn impressive.

Coupled with the fact that he has indeed scored Test centuries against the likes of Walsh, Ambrose, Donald, Waqar, Wasim, Pollock, hell he's even scored a few against McGrath at state level...I just don't see what more he could do to earn 'great' status.

If my calculations are correct, then since the start of 2002 he has averaged 69.59 against Test standard opponents, which is very impressive. Mind you, it doesn't look quite as good when you consider Mohammad Yousuf (60.18), Jacques Kallis (64.60) and Rahul Dravid (60.81) have also averaged over 60. Not to mention the host of other batsmen all averaging over 50 since 2002, of which there are a few.

There isn't anything more Ponting can do, it's up to those who are judging him. I for one don't like judging players until after they have retired, but I would rank Ponting as a great.

The thing with Ponting, of course, is that he was scoring only reasonably - not to excellent levels - at the time of the Ambroses, Donalds etc. No-one is disputing his right to be called a very, very fine batsman, simply one fit to rank with the Tendulkars, Laras, Stephen Waughs etc. I have no issue believing the Ponting of more recent times would have averaged 50-55 against bowling (and catching) such as we saw in the 1990s (including 2000 in that period), but not 70.

Ponting between Headingley 2001 and SCG 2003\04 averaged 78 against Test-standard sides, with negligable assistance from let-offs. He then had a short fallow period. Between SCG 2004\05 and his most recent game as of this post (Bellerive 2007\08) he averaged 75 against Test-standard teams with not-insignificant input from let-offs (CBA to calculate it exactly right now, might do later).

And no KaZo, I'm not doing this again, so please don't even bother.

That Ponting is better than Pietersen, though, is so far beyond all question. Pietersen has a hell of a lot to do before he can start to be considered on equal ground.

 

[Perm]

Because Cook is technically far superior (though even he has his drawbacks) and never once has given-off an air of giving a damn about how fast he scores.

Pietersen has more than once looked like he's got out simply due to the "how dare they think they can stop me scoring at 50-per-100-balls?" curse. Not something that's useful in a batsman. Ponting and one or two others often give-off that air too, but for whatever reasons it gets them out far less and after they've scored far more runs.

I disagree. I've seen a lot of both of these batsmen, playing in England and Australia and I've always thought Pietersen was technically better. He has a big stride, plays straight and can play any kind of delivery. He also has an unorthodox side, which I'm sure everybody has seen, that makes me beleive perhaps people take too much notice of those shots and don't think he is technically very good. Cook does have his drawbacks, and is far too over-reliant on scoring through the leg side.

100 balls for a 50 would be a little slow for Pietersen , but I do understand what you mean. I wouldn't say it's a flaw in his attitude, rather his desire to keep the attack at the bowlers. Obviously there will be periods when he can't keep scoring quickly, due to tight bowling (and that's when the unorthodox shots come into it) but I'm sure he'll learn some patience with a bit more age.

 

[Richard]

I hope so, because that's been his biggest failing in the subcontinent - impetuousity against the seamers, not inability to keep-out the spinners. And he was damn lucky to score most of the runs he did in Pakistan and India. It goes without saying that a batsman who has failed (which he essentially has) in the subcontinent cannot even begin to be regarded in the very top echleon of batsmen.

Regarding the Cook-Pietersen comparison, Pietersen's technique is indeed a fine, though hugely unconventional, one. It's a bit like a lesser Tendulkar-Lara case, with Cook being Tendulkar and Pietersen Lara - something that may work for only 1 in 50 batsmen is not neccessarily bad if it does. The bigger difference is the one of mindset - while it'd be absurd to call Pietersen's mindset poor, it is IMO definitively inferior to Cook's. The best mindset for a batsman at Test-level - the one which will result in never giving away your wicket due to the scoring-rate - is of keeping the same definition of "bad delivery" regardless of the pace you're scoring. Cook does this; Pietersen does not. Now, there are deliveries which would be good ones to Cook and poor ones to Pietersen, and this is fine. What is not is the fact that Pietersen will plenty often enough seek to go after what is not a bad delivery, even to him, due to the scoring-rate.

EDIT: that first post of mine was poorly phrased, "Cook is technically far superior", WTF? Wasn't what I meant at all.

The odd thing, though, is how both batsmen never, ever look fluid - neither will ever be someone I enjoy watching. Yet two batsmen who are far more "natural" looking and infinitely better to watch - Michael Vaughan and Ian Bell - are decidedly lesser scorers. Go figure.

 

[Neil Pickup]

The thing with Ponting, of course, is that he was scoring only reasonably - not to excellent levels - at the time of the Ambroses, Donalds etc. No-one is disputing his right to be called a very, very fine batsman, simply one fit to rank with the Tendulkars, Laras, Stephen Waughs etc. I have no issue believing the Ponting of more recent times would have averaged 50-55 against bowling (and catching) such as we saw in the 1990s (including 2000 in that period), but not 70.

Ponting between Headingley 2001 and SCG 2003\04 averaged 78 against Test-standard sides, with negligable assistance from let-offs. He then had a short fallow period. Between SCG 2004\05 and his most recent game as of this post (Bellerive 2007\08) he averaged 75 against Test-standard teams with not-insignificant input from let-offs (CBA to calculate it exactly right now, might do later).

And no KaZo, I'm not doing this again, so please don't even bother.

That Ponting is better than Pietersen, though, is so far beyond all question. Pietersen has a hell of a lot to do before he can start to be considered on equal ground.

Are you suggestig that Tendulkar and Lara will not go down as all-time greats?

 

[SJS]

Or instead will he he remembered as a very good batsman but not quite one of the greats ?

I think so

You think so what, Fiery?

 

[Perm]

You think so what, Fiery?

Pietersen: will he become an all time great ?

I think that's what he was answering.

 

[Fiery]

Pietersen: will he become an all time great ?

I think that's what he was answering.

correct

 

[Jono]

Not sure. It's possible. He has had a great start to his career, but his attacking style of play (sometimes too attacking for the situation) leads me to believe that there will be a time that he has a very severe form slump...Coupled with the fact that many of his hundreds have included multiple chances of dismissal from the opposition...I think he will do it tough pretty soon.

He'll have to average more than 72 though. Ponting is still denied from 'greatest' lists with such an average in the modern era, so hopefully people are consistent and deny Pietersen a place if he averages that much.

Ponting is a great. I think people have just said let's wait and see before claiming he's better than Lara, Steve Waugh, Tendulkar, Greg Chappell, Viv etc.

 

[haroon510]

he has the potential to be the new genration Viv Richards but lets see he can live up to this claim or not...

 

[Migara]

Pietersen is in the process of being found out. Asif found that he's playing all around the in-cutters, and Maharoof continued from where Asif has ended. Later Fernado's inswingers became too good for Pietersen. After a fearful bashing in England, Murali slowly and surely have started to dominate Pietersen. The ball that got Pietersen from Malinga shows what could have been the case if Donald, Ambrose and Walsh were around. They produced those deiveries as a staple diet for the batsman. And Warne has retired, if he had another season, he'll also surely find ways to dominate Pietersen.

Unless Pietersen tightens up his technique and shuts his big mouth up without winding up bowlers (Malinga was winded up by Pietersen and got that jaffa) he'll be down the slippery slope to being ordinary.

 

[Perm]

Unless Pietersen tightens up his technique and shuts his big mouth up without winding up bowlers (Malinga was winded up by Pietersen and got that jaffa) he'll be down the slippery slope to being ordinary.

Why does Pietersen need to 'shut his big mouth up' when it's blatantly obvious that sledging his opponents helps him mentally? The guy loves a challenge and is at his best when players start chirping away at him. He's proven himself to be very strong mentally, and can handle the best team in the world. Occassionally the bowlers will produce excellent deliveries, but most of the time they will try that extra bit harder and lose their advantage over the batsman.

 

[Richard]

Are you suggestig that Tendulkar and Lara will not go down as all-time greats?

Erm... why would you be thinking that?

 

[Richard]

The ball that got Pietersen from Malinga shows what could have been the case if Donald, Ambrose and Walsh were around. They produced those deiveries as a staple diet for the batsman.

I've no doubt that Pietersen - like any batsman - would score less against the likes of Donald, Ambrose, etc. than he would against the bowlers he's faced. But no bowler in history has produced the sort of deliveries Maaalinga dismissed him with in Galle on a regular basis - they're always extraordinary exceptions. They can only be produced by the pitch, not the bowler. It's just a case of who's in the right place at the right time (though naturally the more accurate you are the better your chances of being in said right place at said right time).

 

[Migara]

Why does Pietersen need to 'shut his big mouth up' when it's blatantly obvious that sledging his opponents helps him mentally? The guy loves a challenge and is at his best when players start chirping away at him. He's proven himself to be very strong mentally, and can handle the best team in the world. Occassionally the bowlers will produce excellent deliveries, but most of the time they will try that extra bit harder and lose their advantage over the batsman.

And of you are following SL cricket closely, you'll find that Lankan players normally don't sledge (except Mahela, Vandort and Sanga). Pietersen started sledging SL bowlers during the last tour in ENG, and now they collectively hunt him down. He started doing the same here and Lankan bowlers didn't look back. His approach very well suits him with aggressive sides like Aussies or Saffies, but his approach will fire up sides like SL who are very laid back with sledging excepts odd comment here and there, and we saw clearly the results during ODI and Test series. He should learn to sledge who are sledging at him. If he continues sledging laid back guys and fire them up, they'll come all over him.

 

[Migara]

I've no doubt that Pietersen - like any batsman - would score less against the likes of Donald, Ambrose, etc. than he would against the bowlers he's faced. But no bowler in history has produced the sort of deliveries Maaalinga dismissed him with in Galle on a regular basis - they're always extraordinary exceptions. They can only be produced by the pitch, not the bowler. It's just a case of who's in the right place at the right time (though naturally the more accurate you are the better your chances of being in said right place at said right time).

I am not that sure that it came off the pitch. Earlier over he bowled a similar one in similar length that sailed over the wicket keeper's head for four byes. He was bending his back at that time. But could be the pitch on both occasions.

But when we look at Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Holding, Thompson etc, they've produced similar deliveries with mind chilling regularity (at least one per two or three test matches). all of them cannot be attributed to the pitch. Ambrose once revealed that it was the effort ball that he made batsman smell the leather, after lulling in to safety with series of ball with less pace.

 

[Laurrz]

Pietersen is in the process of being found out. Asif found that he's playing all around the in-cutters,

Asif is class though

anyone remember the delivery he got KP out first ball.. absolute pearler..

 

[Migara]

Asif is class though

anyone remember the delivery he got KP out first ball.. absolute pearler..

Problem is he got out to same delivery from a not so class bowler (with my aplogies to Maharoof, who is above Asif in ODI rankings at #10)

 

[Craig]

If Ponting scores big in India this time around, as I expect him to do so, I don't see what more he can do as a Test batsman.

 

[Richard]

I am not that sure that it came off the pitch. Earlier over he bowled a similar one in similar length that sailed over the wicket keeper's head for four byes. He was bending his back at that time. But could be the pitch on both occasions.

But when we look at Donald, Ambrose, Walsh, Holding, Thompson etc, they've produced similar deliveries with mind chilling regularity (at least one per two or three test matches). all of them cannot be attributed to the pitch. Ambrose once revealed that it was the effort ball that he made batsman smell the leather, after lulling in to safety with series of ball with less pace.

Nah, no-one, however good, can bowl a ball like that without it hitting something on the pitch that you wouldn't normally expect to be there.

Sure, the Ambroses can bowl effort-balls that bounce more than the stock delivery, but nowhere near that much. Those sorts of balls are extraordinary ones, and if bowlers could produce them to order no batsmen would ever score any runs really.

 

[morgieb]

He could well be, but I doubt it.