England can have the South African Scraps.

[southafrica]

Right, before we start this, if you already have a negative view of South Africa and are here just to be judgemental, don't bother, we're here to have an educated discussion.

KOLPAK. Not sure if any of you heard about Garnett Kruger leaving South Africa to play for Leicestershire because he was unhappy about his treatment from Cricket South Africa (CSA). Fair enough, but hold on a second, I thought CSA were out to "disadvantage" white players. Well, that is in fact what Kevin Pietersen has been saying for years. In, fact, it is what many of you have been saying for years... but Kruger is black!?

He played in the 2005 VB series after Ntini was sent home. Many of the international "fans" were saying Kruger was playing because it was a black replacing a black... where was Dale Steyn?

So, if CSA and the "quota" system were so wrong, why are players from all backgrounds leaving? Well, the answer for me is simple. Players who are not good enough to play for South Africa blame CSA, racism and the quota system. I seriously doubt at the age of 30 Kruger is going to blow other counties away...

Look at the young talent South Africa has coming through... Duimeny, Phillander, Steyn, de Villiers, van der Warth, Bosman... WOW... BLACK and WHITE players... imagine that...

I have a funny feeling CSA is on the right track here, they've got a balance without managing to lessen the quality of South African cricket, but the rest of the cricket world is unwilling to aknowledge it...

Is it not strange that South Africans who have left for England have actually not managed to break into the English team, apart from a certain Kevin Pietersen? So, does that not prove my point, if they're not good enough to play for South Africa, they're not good enough to play for England either, which leaves their reasons for leaving purely financial ones... It's easier for disgrunteled South Africans to leave, because if all else fails, they can always blame it on Quota, and in Kevin Pietersen's case, if everything goes well, well to hell with it, blame it on the quotas anyway...

 

[Richard]

Don't think anyone's seriously claimed SAfricans on track to play for South Africa are going to end-up in England, TBH. Just that the Pothases and Krugers etc. would serve South Africa better in Franchise cricket, because they raise the standard there.

IMO Kolpak-players being enabled does potentially damage SAfrican cricket, as it does English.

 

[southafrica]

Richard, you have your head screwed on the right way! I like that!

It's an excellent point. KOLPAK is damaging England aswell as South Africa (and probally associate countries like Holland, Ten Des Cota plays for Essex). So why is it allowed? Because at the end of the day, it suits England a hell of a lot more than South Africa.

If India is where all the cricket money is, why haven't we seen people rushing over to play for Indian provinces?

 

[Swervy]

Richard, you have your head screwed on the right way! I like that!

Richard....have you resorted to multiple accounts

 

[BoyBrumby]

Richard, you have your head screwed on the right way! I like that!

It's an excellent point. KOLPAK is damaging England aswell as South Africa (and probally associate countries like Holland, Ten Des Cota plays for Essex). So why is it allowed? Because at the end of the day, it suits England a hell of a lot more than South Africa.

If India is where all the cricket money is, why haven't we seen people rushing over to play for Indian provinces?

Employment laws would be my guess. Mind you, a few saffies seem to have signed up for the ICL, so perhaps there will be a cricketing Klondike in India.

I'd agree that Kolpaks don't advantage England, or at least very few do because the majority are players with good careers behind them who're unlikely to qualify in time to make a meaningful contribution to Team England. Obviously there are exceptions like Pietersen and (potentially) Trott and Kieswetter, but most are simply coming over for the money our counties are only too ready to throw at them.

EDIT: Obviously, as UK passport holders, Pietersen & Trott aren't Kolpaks per se, but it's the same ball-park. Not sure about Kieswetter.

 

[Richard]

Neither Pietersen nor Trott are even Kolpak players, they're both qualified via British heritage.

EDIT: Dale's edited before I correct him.

 

[Richard]

It's an excellent point. KOLPAK is damaging England aswell as South Africa (and probally associate countries like Holland, Ten Des Cota plays for Essex). So why is it allowed? Because at the end of the day, it suits England a hell of a lot more than South Africa.

Thing is, though, it's certainly not a scheme dreampt-up by the ECB - it's one of the EU's less genius-filled ideas to treat sport as any other form of employment - which, really, is not the way it works. Sport is notably different from any other employment form IMO.

Basically, anyone with a trade agreement with the EU can have their people work in EU countries (including the UK) and it's against European law to prevent this. Hence, there's nothing the ECB can do.

Encouragingly, however, there was at one point a sign the the EU intended to rectify their misguided stance and recognise that sport was indeed "specific". However, such a condition has yet to take effect and until it does, Kolpaks will continue to flow.

 

[Richard]

Richard....have you resorted to multiple accounts

Haha, yeah. I'm a closet SAfrican after all.

 

[Langeveldt]

Interesting thread, and I hope you are right.. I think it's increasingly down to money that players are leaving our shores.. Nobody is going to kid me that Kruger is any great shakes as an international cricketer, but he can earn far more in England.. And as we know, you can be as proud of your country as you like, but money makes the world go around... As for Kieswetter.. Don't make me laugh..

As South Africans it is in our nature to play the race card at every oppertunity.. That is just the way our society is set up I am afraid.. Fact of the matter is black and white cricketers are coming through the system.. I'm not happy with quotas, especially with a national team that can pretty much select itself, but there we go... I fail to see how the Afrikaans cricketers have flourished under the quota system, if it is indeed so destructive to our cricketing setup..

We are seeing it with teams like New Zealand too.. in this new era of professionalism, players don't care where they go, if they are getting a better deal elsewhere then they will leave.. It's going to be interesting to see if we end up with a kind of "premier league" scenario in international where there are a few haves, and a lot of have nots..

 

[TT Boy]

Employment laws would be my guess. Mind you, a few saffies seem to have signed up for the ICL, so perhaps there will be a cricketing Klondike in India.

I'd agree that Kolpaks don't advantage England, or at least very few do because the majority are players with good careers behind them who're unlikely to qualify in time to make a meaningful contribution to Team England. Obviously there are exceptions like Pietersen and (potentially) Trott and Kieswetter, but most are simply coming over for the money our counties are only too ready to throw at them.

EDIT: Obviously, as UK passport holders, Pietersen & Trott aren't Kolpaks per se, but it's the same ball-park. Not sure about Kieswetter.

Kieswetter was educated in the UK (went to a rather good private school) and his mum I believe is English but he still thought he waste CSA money and time by opting to play for them at the under-19 WC, then promptly deciding that an international career with England is far more attractive.

Make up your mind Son…

Also Jonathan Trott’s English ‘background’ is rather overplayed, he played under-15 and under-19 cricket with Graeme Smith for South Africa and excelled for Boland but his education at Stellenbosch probably taught Trott the value of money. Quotas had nothing to do with him; he was rated at nineteen as a future South African cricketer but back then as an opener…

 

[BoyBrumby]

The saffie sporting exodus isn't only limited to cricket. Arguably there's been more of an impact on our union team by ex-pat yarpies. In our XXII to face the US on Saturday we have Mike Catt & Matt Stevens, who're both as South African as biltong but qualify via British ancestry. Stuart Abbott was a world cup winner last time & Nick Abendanon was one of the unlucky 7 who just missed out on our 30 man squad at the final cut.

It isn't just us poms who benefit either: Australia have Dan Vickerman (with Clyde Rathbone just missing out) & France have Pieter De Villiers in their squads.

 

[TT Boy]

Interesting thread, and I hope you are right.. I think it's increasingly down to money that players are leaving our shores.. Nobody is going to kid me that Kruger is any great shakes as an international cricketer, but he can earn far more in England.. And as we know, you can be as proud of your country as you like, but money makes the world go around... As for Kieswetter.. Don't make me laugh..

It does indeed but it does say something about the South African cricketers when the likes of Simon Katich refuse a ridiculously good contract offer from Derbyshire (to play as an overseas pro) because Simon's goal is to play again for his country, not to finish his career revelling in mediocrity. His pursuit of again playing for Australia is far more of a pipe dream than most of the Kolpak cricketers, who realistically could play for South Africa.

Ryan McLaren decided that three years at Kent is a far more lucrative and safer deal than to risk it all by playing for South Africa, a nation which had already expressed a great interest in putting him into their one day set-up, he isn’t as SouthAfrica said a scrap but a great loss.

 

[sledger]

So, if CSA and the "quota" system were so wrong, why are players from all backgrounds leaving? Well, the answer for me is simple. Players who are not good enough to play for South Africa blame CSA, racism and the quota system.

haha, yeah, pietersen would never get in the SA team.

 

[TT Boy]

Neil Manthorp’s latest article on SuperSport touches upon this very point

http://www.supercricket.co.za/default.asp?id=5574&des=sportstalk

Neil use to be a fan on the Kolpak and has argued in the past (like Haroon Lorgat, former South African selector) that it could only benefit South African cricket (using Paul Harris as an example) but the losses of VB van Jaarsveld and Ryan McLaren have seen Neil’s tune change slightly…

 

[HeathDavisSpeed]

We are seeing it with teams like New Zealand too.. in this new era of professionalism, players don't care where they go, if they are getting a better deal elsewhere then they will leave.. It's going to be interesting to see if we end up with a kind of "premier league" scenario in international where there are a few haves, and a lot of have nots..

Interestingly, a number of South Africans have moved to New Zealand as well - most notably to play under former Franchise coach, Dave Nosworthy at Canterbury. Johann Myburgh recently signed up and the wicketkeeper whose name escapes me at the moment is a pretty young Yarpie (who Nosworthy is targetting to get qualified for NZ). Also, Grant Elliott recently made his debut for New Zealand A, and he's a Saffer through and through. These guys can't be coming here for the money, which is even less than the amount paid in SAF.

 

[southafrica]

haha, yeah, pietersen would never get in the SA team.

Well, at the time he was eligeble, he wasn't good enough... besides, and here's one to keep all the English fans awake tonight... I'd rather have Kallis, Dravid, Ponting, Lara, Cook, Yousuf, Jayawardene playing for my team, because at least you know they are playing cricket and not playing for the cameras...

 

[southafrica]

Interestingly, a number of South Africans have moved to New Zealand as well - most notably to play under former Franchise coach, Dave Nosworthy at Canterbury. Johann Myburgh recently signed up and the wicketkeeper whose name escapes me at the moment is a pretty young Yarpie (who Nosworthy is targetting to get qualified for NZ). Also, Grant Elliott recently made his debut for New Zealand A, and he's a Saffer through and through. These guys can't be coming here for the money, which is even less than the amount paid in SAF.

I really don't mean this disrespectfully, because I love the New Zealand team. I'm looking forward to seeing them under Vetorri, and I have so much respect for their team, but seriously, it is going to be easier to play for NZ than it is for SA or England. The country is rugby mad, it's a small island, and natural NZ talant always runs the risk of being lost to Australia. It's a pity, because NZ are amougst the hardest working cricketers and the most underrated on the planet.

 

[TT Boy]

Interestingly, a number of South Africans have moved to New Zealand as well - most notably to play under former Franchise coach, Dave Nosworthy at Canterbury. Johann Myburgh recently signed up and the wicketkeeper whose name escapes me at the moment is a pretty young Yarpie (who Nosworthy is targetting to get qualified for NZ). Also, Grant Elliott recently made his debut for New Zealand A, and he's a Saffer through and through. These guys can't be coming here for the money, which is even less than the amount paid in SAF.

Lifestyle choice for Kruger van Wyk, who had a pretty decent time of it with the Titans but was never going to play for South Africa. Johannes Myburgh on the other hand couldn't get a game for love or money in South Africa (was released by the Titans) and took the advice of both Kruger and coach Nowsworthy to emigrate. Grant Elliott again struggled to find a real place in South African cricket and spent the best part of his career playing here, there and everywhere.

 

[Langeveldt]

Interesting to see Grant Elliot in NZ.. I used to play club cricket with him

 

[Craig]

Interesting to see Grant Elliot in NZ.. I used to play club cricket with him

How good is he?