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Ronnie Irani vs Andre Adams

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Okay - two of probably the least fashionable names in World Cricket - much vaunted in their heyday, but with Irani's career coming to a final end with another knee injury, and Adams' international career hanging by a thread after pushing Bevan Griggs' batting helmet grille into his face last year, maybe these two peas-in-a-pod need to be praised and compared.

Both very similar players - combative, aggressive all-rounders, both had their chances with their respective international sides but never really achieved the success that their talents could have allowed them to. Were they as much of a total disaster as history makes out? Were either really given the chance their talents deserved?

Certainly for Irani, in an era where every bits-and-pieces player under the sun got a chance playing for England, could he have had more opportunities than the 31 ODI caps and 3 tests he was afforded? Well, yes and no. Irani often flattered to deceive. A man who, lets not forget, has scored 26 first-class hundreds, 72 first class fifties and over 13,000 first class runs never scored more than 53 in any international game. At the time of his international career, he was also a more than useful bowler - finishing with over 300 first class wickets. In fact, he once finished as man of the series against India in an ODI tournament after taking 5 wickets for 26 runs. Despite these successes, or maybe in fact because these performances showed he was capable of so much more, he got left by the wayside whilst other players such as Anthony McGrath and Rikki Clarke played a similar role.

Adams' international career would be thought to be equally mediocre. However, what Kiwi can forget his briliant test debut - taking six wickets (including a brilliant caught and bowled to take the key with of Nasser Hussain in the second knock) as NZ defeated England at Eden Park in 2002. Despite these successes, Adams fell out of favour in the test arena, ultimately to James Franklin. An ODI career followed in fits-and-starts as Adams fell in and out of favour - sometimes succeeding with the ball, but usually overshadowed by his failure to provide the aggressive batting that avid watchers of NZ domestic cricket have come to expect.

So, two exceptionally talented players who ultimately failed at the top of the game. Which of them was the better player? Irani was easily the better batsman in the grand scheme of things - employing simple batting ideas and methods to dispatch the ball to the boundary with alarming regularity in domestic cricket. Adams' methods seemed to employ more brute force than the equally belligerant Irani. In terms of their bowling, Adams stats say he was the better player - and he was probably a little bit quicker than Irani.

However, what both players will be remembered for are their on pitch confrontations, and for never living up to their potential.

So, who do you think was better? Are there other highly talented players of the same ilk out there who've never really made it?
 

Fiery

Banned
Adams

Irani always looked like a village cricketer to me. I've seen Adams do some great things in 1st-class cricket and he had fleeting moments of brilliance in international cricket. Actually bowled very well in his only test and had a blinder in the 2003 WC cup game vs Windies (MOM) and destroyed India in this game.
 
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chaminda_00

Hall of Fame Member
Ronni Irani has done amazing things at FC level too...

A bit hard to compare a guy who got fair few chances at International level, to a guy who got one chance. Adams would win cus he had the odd good game.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
Irani I always liked the look of as a batsman...he had a very simple technique and a wide range of shots, hit the ball very powerfully. He had a couple of big technical flaws I remember in particular plonking his front foot straight down n playing around it (lbw's)...but I'm still quite suprised he didnt do better than he eventually did as a batsman at international level, due to the technical issues he was never really gonna be good enough to hold down a top 6 test spot on his batting alone...but he averaged 40ish (if i remember correctly) in FC cricket and was quite pleasing on the eye so could've made more batting contributions at top level.
His bowling was never going to be upto it at international level, at his pace (110-125kph i recall) you need to have pinpoint control and be able to do alot with the ball...he had neither....his control wasnt a disgrace but it wasnt good by international standards and while he moved the ball a bit in helpful conditions I remember him never getting it off the straight in Australia. Completely ineffective bowler unless you have very green conditions (when anybody who bowls seam-up will be ok) or a very slow-low deck.
Overall I think his county record deserved a chance at international level, he got that chance and didnt make the most of it, generally looking out of his depth, so I dont think anyone can complain he didnt play more, besides there was a far better player than him with a far less impressive FC record...his name was Flintoff.

Adams I thought had alot of talent, he bowled at a nippy pace and at times he showed excellent control, was a very zippy bowler off the deck and could hit the seam and be a handful. I recall first seeing him in Bevans match during the 2001-02 VB series and after that series I thought he would go onto play alot of cricket (OD cricket in particular) for New Zealand. Had the goods with the ball and deserved a place on that alone, and seemed very good at bowling at the death. Plus he could hit the ball a mile although tbh I never thought he'd be more than a handy number 8 or 9 with the bat..and he was a good fielder....disapointed that he hasnt gone onto bigger things.
 

Craig

World Traveller
I felt he was unlucky to get more Tests. I don't know how well he would have gone, but it would of been worthy at least a second Test.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I like your analysis iamdavid, pretty much in line with my own point of view. I have this feeling that Adams has probably sabotaged his own career pretty well up to now, and hasn't really timed his career well, with Bracewell being the international coach during most of his career and Bracewell certainly having his 'favourites'.

I'm very intregued by how mentally tough Ronnie Irani must be to have had his bowling career wrecked by injury, but keep ploughing on despite surely damaging the long term prognosis for his knee. Not only that, but he turned himself into a fine first class batsman for Essex - averaging over 50 with the bat a couple of times in the last few seasons.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Irani always looked like a village cricketer to me. I've seen Adams do some great things in 1st-class cricket and he had fleeting moments of brilliance in international cricket.
And exactly the same thing's true of Irani. Judge a player by his performance, not his looks.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Overall I think his county record deserved a chance at international level, he got that chance and didnt make the most of it, generally looking out of his depth, so I dont think anyone can complain he didnt play more, besides there was a far better player than him with a far less impressive FC record...his name was Flintoff.
TBF, there was only a small overlap in their times. The season Flintoff actually begun to demonstrate he was more than an utterly mediocre all-rounder was the season Irani ceased to be one and was forced to become a specialist batsman. Irani's last Test was the season after Flintoff's first.

Irani was more a contemporary of Craig White. And White had more talent in his little (bowling) finger than Irani and it's a crying shame he never had that much of a Test career.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Certainly for Irani, in an era where every bits-and-pieces player under the sun got a chance playing for England, could he have had more opportunities than the 31 ODI caps and 3 tests he was afforded? Well, yes and no. Irani often flattered to deceive. A man who, lets not forget, has scored 26 first-class hundreds, 72 first class fifties and over 13,000 first class runs never scored more than 53 in any international game. At the time of his international career, he was also a more than useful bowler - finishing with over 300 first class wickets. In fact, he once finished as man of the series against India in an ODI tournament after taking 5 wickets for 26 runs. Despite these successes, or maybe in fact because these performances showed he was capable of so much more, he got left by the wayside whilst other players such as Anthony McGrath and Rikki Clarke played a similar role.
TBF, Clarke and McGrath were only given chances after Irani ceased to be an all-rounder. It's perfectly possible that, had he still been able to bowl, neither would have played.

Those picked - perhaps undeservedly - ahead of Irani number the likes of Mike Watkinson, Neil Smith, Dougie Brown, Matthew Fleming, Adam Hollioake, Vince Wells and Paul Collingwood.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bloody hell, Neil Smith and Matthew Fleming got caps for you guys... How much do you actually value your caps? Alan Wells, Mark Illot, Richard Illingworth, Simon Brown, Gavin Hamilton... Jeez!!

Seriously, yeah, I think I had my time periods a little muddled up, but Irani played in the 2003 World Cup as I recall... I think his knee finally gave up the ghost that English summer. Craig White was a good player at his best... He could be pretty quick (140 mph?) and he was a useful bat. As I recall, he excelled in that period when England played Pakistan and Sri Lanka in the sub-continent in the same English winter.... Was that 2002 or 2001??
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Bloody hell, Neil Smith and Matthew Fleming got caps for you guys... How much do you actually value your caps? Alan Wells, Mark Illot, Richard Illingworth, Simon Brown, Gavin Hamilton... Jeez!!
Well yeah...there is such a thing as proven county performers getting test caps.
 

Neil Pickup

Cricket Web Moderator
Bloody hell, Neil Smith and Matthew Fleming got caps for you guys... How much do you actually value your caps? Alan Wells, Mark Illot, Richard Illingworth, Simon Brown, Gavin Hamilton... Jeez!!

Seriously, yeah, I think I had my time periods a little muddled up, but Irani played in the 2003 World Cup as I recall... I think his knee finally gave up the ghost that English summer. Craig White was a good player at his best... He could be pretty quick (140 mph?) and he was a useful bat. As I recall, he excelled in that period when England played Pakistan and Sri Lanka in the sub-continent in the same English winter.... Was that 2002 or 2001??
Never quite touched 140mph, no. He wasn't quite Heath.
 

iamdavid

International Debutant
I would swear blind I remember him bowling over 140kph during the 2002-03 Ashes series....it was a spell during either the Perth or Adelaide tests cant remember which, and he was bowling to Adam Gilchrist and his brother-in-law and looking rather sharp.

But yes...good player (during the parts of his carear I witnessed atleast, he was by all reports rubbish early on), shame injury effectively ended his international carear just as he was getting on top of the Australians
 

Woodster

International Captain
Yes Craig White certainly bowled in excess of 140 kmh on occasions, unfortuntately his injuries curtailed any more of that.

Have always been a fan of Irani. His bowling was pedestrian, but he did do a decent job for England, when they used him straight after the 15 over fielding restriction, and bowl his 10 overs straight through. He was reasonably accurate I thought, lacked any real penetration but did a steady job.

His batting has certainly improved with age, and with more focus going into that area since he stopped bowling, he became one of the finest one-day batsmen on the county circuit.

I think it is difficult to judge the better of the two, Irani grew to be a far more consistent batsman than Adams, but I would suggest Adams carried more threat with the ball.

If Irani batted like he has in his last 2 or 3 seasons when he was in his twenties, he would surely have got more internationals under his belt, especially 50 over games.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I would swear blind I remember him bowling over 140kph during the 2002-03 Ashes series....it was a spell during either the Perth or Adelaide tests cant remember which, and he was bowling to Adam Gilchrist and his brother-in-law and looking rather sharp.
And that was after one bad injury had generally reduced his pace. He was bowling those sorts of speeds game-after-game in 2000.
But yes...good player (during the parts of his carear I witnessed atleast, he was by all reports rubbish early on), shame injury effectively ended his international carear just as he was getting on top of the Australians
Not rubbish early on at all. Didn't do that well in 1994 and 1994\95, but might have been given more of a run had the selections of the time not been generally so fickle.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Bloody hell, Neil Smith and Matthew Fleming got caps for you guys... How much do you actually value your caps? Alan Wells, Mark Illot, Richard Illingworth, Simon Brown, Gavin Hamilton... Jeez!!
Alan Wells was a good batsman, but was picked after his time (not entirely blameless - he went for the Rebel tour route in his prime). Vince Wells was a pretty mediocre batsman-who-bowled-a-bit, though. And Mark Ilott and Simon Brown were good left-arm seam bowlers. Probably not international standard, no, but you can bet your life they both look jealously upon Ryan Sidebottom, given a new leash of life after the initial failures.

Gavin Hamilton, meanwhile, would do well not to be judged by that one Test. He could have been a serious player IMO but for the dreaded "yips" he suffered 2 years after that game.
Seriously, yeah, I think I had my time periods a little muddled up, but Irani played in the 2003 World Cup as I recall... I think his knee finally gave up the ghost that English summer. Craig White was a good player at his best... He could be pretty quick (140 mph?) and he was a useful bat. As I recall, he excelled in that period when England played Pakistan and Sri Lanka in the sub-continent in the same English winter.... Was that 2002 or 2001??
2000\01 was when we were in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Some simplistic souls dismiss his contributions as minor in that winter - very, very far from it. Some magnificent all-round displays. Bowled brilliantly the previous summer, too. As Master Hoitink (that's iamdavid) said though - his career was finished by injury at the age of 32 - a terrible, terrible shame.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Alan Wells was a good batsman, but was picked after his time (not entirely blameless - he went for the Rebel tour route in his prime). Vince Wells was a pretty mediocre batsman-who-bowled-a-bit, though. And Mark Ilott and Simon Brown were good left-arm seam bowlers. Probably not international standard, no, but you can bet your life they both look jealously upon Ryan Sidebottom, given a new leash of life after the initial failures.

Gavin Hamilton, meanwhile, would do well not to be judged by that one Test. He could have been a serious player IMO but for the dreaded "yips" he suffered 2 years after that game.

2000\01 was when we were in Pakistan and Sri Lanka. Some simplistic souls dismiss his contributions as minor in that winter - very, very far from it. Some magnificent all-round displays. Bowled brilliantly the previous summer, too. As Master Hoitink (that's iamdavid) said though - his career was finished by injury at the age of 32 - a terrible, terrible shame.
Mark Ilott contributed to one of those great cricekt moments for the purists.

Unfortunately for him it was David Boon on-driving him on the up form just outside off stump all the way along ht eground for four in the 93 Ashes series with a follow-through which only went about 30 cm. A great shot complimented by Benaud, whose commentary was "Oooh shot......... I don't know if contempt is too strong a word, but David Boon really did give that a tremendous bit of hammer!".
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
Mark Ilott contributed to one of those great cricekt moments for the purists.

Unfortunately for him it was David Boon on-driving him on the up form just outside off stump all the way along ht eground for four in the 93 Ashes series with a follow-through which only went about 30 cm. A great shot complimented by Benaud, whose commentary was "Oooh shot......... I don't know if contempt is too strong a word, but David Boon really did give that a tremendous bit of hammer!".
Painful memories. That was the summer when so many Essex players were picked by Keith Fletcher and/or Graham Gooch, that one county announcer saw fit to publicly presume that Trevor Bailey was unavailable on the day when the latest test squad was published.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
And the same was almost true of Surrey in 2001... even though all of them patently deserved their selection (though Ward batting at five, six and seven was stupid). Fortunately we played a bit better in that series. 1993 was probably the lowest point of the 1990s - yes, lower than 1999 by quite a bit.
 

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