The REAL allrounders Poll

[archie mac]

Irrelevant. That might only show the weakness of the FC cricket he was playing. 55 Tests is enough of a sample so we can ignore his FC stats when judging him as a test player.

I don't think that is true, the SS is the toughest comp. in the world, I am sure some of the state cricket he played was of a much higher standard then some of the jokes that pass for Test matches these days. Miller also played a lot of state cricket just as a batsman, and that is one reason he has a much higher FC batting average.

Going by averages, he has a worse bowling average, worse strike rate, worse batting average, but more centuries compared to Imran. I still put him equal though as Imran had his peaks at different point in his career.

Also Miller made his FC debut in 1938 but then lost 7 years to the war, a huge slice of his career. It is a pity that Miller was not a chaser of records, I think for talent he may have been just as good as Sobers, but often did not try unless he thought it was worth his time

 

[Richard]

I didn't say no cricketer before 60s could be taken seriously- but very very few could be.
I'd take Bradman,Miller, Lindwall, Davidson, Mankad, Hazare, Adcock, Tayfield and Ranji seriously.
Someone like Hobbs, Hutton, Woodfull,Ponsford, Larwood, etc. i dont consider to be in the alltime category.
However, why just highlight Mankad if you wanted to make that point ? Did you miss seeing Miller's name there as well ?

You also know perfectly well my opinion of why you hold that viewpoint - so I was picking the Indian rather than the Anglo.

 

[Richard]

the SS is the toughest comp. in the world

Was.

 

[gunner]

well if you put it like this then statistically abdul razzaq and shahid afridi will be the greatest all rounders ever by the end of their careers
both are only 26-27 atm and although razzaqs position is gauranteed for aslong as he wants not sure about afridi but if both carry on for anothr 10 years then they can be the undisputed greatest odi players ever

people in 100 years will call them the best ever all rounders but we all know better cos we were here to witness them

 

[Pup Clarke]

well if you put it like this then statistically abdul razzaq and shahid afridi will be the greatest all rounders ever by the end of their careers
both are only 26-27 atm and although razzaqs position is gauranteed for aslong as he wants not sure about afridi but if both carry on for anothr 10 years then they can be the undisputed greatest odi players ever

people in 100 years will call them the best ever all rounders but we all know better cos we were here to witness them

I don't think so

 

[steds]

well if you put it like this then statistically abdul razzaq and shahid afridi will be the greatest all rounders ever by the end of their careers

How?

 

[archie mac]

Was.

It will always be the Sheffield Shield to me

Or is that just a case of sour milk

 

[Goughy]

I mean without wanting to actually bring allround performance into a discussion about allrounders but Im sure we all know but choose to ignore that-

Botham

Was the quickest to the doubles (in games played)

• 100 wickets and 1000 runs
• 200 wickets and 2000 runs
• 300 wickets and 3000 runs

A Century and 5 wickets in an innings in the same game

• 5 Times- Botham
• 2 Times- Sobers
• 1 Time- Imran
• 2 Times- Kallis
• 1 Time- Miller

Of the players on the list (you can also add Kapil, Hadlee, Benaud, Kallis) he is the only player with 10 or more Test Centuries and 10 or more 5wi

No doubt Sobers was a far better batsman than Botham but in roughly the same number of Tests Botham took 4.5 times as many 5wi as Sobers. Whereas Sobers scored less than twice as many 100s as Botham.

Apart from Botham, I cant find any player to average at any point after 20 Tests, over 40 with the bat and under 20 with the ball

If we are going to talk allrounders lets talk about allround ability and putting it on the field.

 

[C_C]

You also know perfectly well my opinion of why you hold that viewpoint - so I was picking the Indian rather than the Anglo.

I was aware that you thought my opinion on this is flawed but i wasn't aware that you saw this as a 'racist' tendency to marginalize cricket in the days before India was a decent team.
That is the interpretation i got from your above quote. Correct me if i am wrong. HOwever, if i am right in this interpretation, you are sadly mistaken.
I consider every single good/great pre 60s character to posess inflated statistics who'd come down in the modern age- just that some of them would still be good enough to rank amongst the best.

 

[Richard]

It will always be the Sheffield Shield to me

Or is that just a case of sour milk

You've gotta at least give it to them that Pura Cup sounds better than Pura Milk Cup.

 

[Richard]

I mean without wanting to actually bring allround performance into a discussion about allrounders but Im sure we all know but choose to ignore that-

Botham

Was the quickest to the doubles (in games played)

• 100 wickets and 1000 runs
• 200 wickets and 2000 runs
• 300 wickets and 3000 runs

A Century and 5 wickets in an innings in the same game

• 5 Times- Botham
• 2 Times- Sobers
• 1 Time- Imran
• 2 Times- Kallis
• 1 Time- Miller

Of the players on the list (you can also add Kapil, Hadlee, Benaud, Kallis) he is the only player with 10 or more Test Centuries and 10 or more 5wi

No doubt Sobers was a far better batsman than Botham but in roughly the same number of Tests Botham took 4.5 times as many 5wi as Sobers. Whereas Sobers scored less than twice as many 100s as Botham.

Apart from Botham, I cant find any player to average at any point after 20 Tests, over 40 with the bat and under 20 with the ball

If we are going to talk allrounders lets talk about allround ability and putting it on the field.

Already denounced that one - it was just that people needed to get accustomed to him, that was always going to take some time, though. Once he was figured-out his earlier successes obviously become completely and totally meaningless.




(Remember... that word beginning with s...)

 

[archie mac]

I mean without wanting to actually bring allround performance into a discussion about allrounders but Im sure we all know but choose to ignore that-

Botham

Was the quickest to the doubles (in games played)

• 100 wickets and 1000 runs
• 200 wickets and 2000 runs
• 300 wickets and 3000 runs

A Century and 5 wickets in an innings in the same game

• 5 Times- Botham
• 2 Times- Sobers
• 1 Time- Imran
• 2 Times- Kallis
• 1 Time- Miller

Of the players on the list (you can also add Kapil, Hadlee, Benaud, Kallis) he is the only player with 10 or more Test Centuries and 10 or more 5wi

No doubt Sobers was a far better batsman than Botham but in roughly the same number of Tests Botham took 4.5 times as many 5wi as Sobers. Whereas Sobers scored less than twice as many 100s as Botham.

If we are going to talk allrounders lets talk about allround ability and putting it on the field.

Very impressive, and I have no doubt Both was/is an all time great BUT

There are a lot of things to take into account, quality of the opposition, quality of the other bowlers in the players team ( I imagine the great WIs attacks of the 80s were down on wickets per Tests compared with say Hadlee, because they had to share the wickets around)

State of the match (sometimes a 50 is worth much more then a 200)

Lenth of career, if you played a 100 Tests compared to 50 surely you have twice as many chances to claim a 5 wicket innings.

That is why stats on there own are not enough, I was lucky to see Botham at his peak and he was great, but I still have the feeling he was not better then either Sobers or Miller

 

[C_C]

Whereas Sobers scored less than twice as many 100s as Botham.

???????

Can you answer this : How the fook will someone take five-fers consistently when he is bowling 10-15 overs in helpful conditions and 30-40 overs in unhelpful conditions ?!?

You also forget one thing - a lot of Botham's record is questioned because a lot of it came against beleagured WSC-depleted teams. He is perhaps questioned more than others because after WSC, his bowling was good for just two more years before going into terminal decline.

Botham's high five-fers is something that i'd hold against him : it'd be like having a batsman with 25 test centuries and an average just touching 40. It implies that they had way too many off days than decent/good days on field.

What also counts against Botham is he fared worse than all his contemporary allrounders against the highest quality test of his time : battle vs the West Indies.
You are always measured by how you did against the best of the best- which is why Tendulkar and Lara gets higher billing than Kallis or Youhana.
Kapil, Hadlee, Imran were far more impressive against the West Indies than Botham and that is a big reason why i don't rate Botham very highly. Against the best of the best, he came up shortest of them all.

 

[Richard]

I was aware that you thought my opinion on this is flawed but i wasn't aware that you saw this as a 'racist' tendency to marginalize cricket in the days before India was a decent team.
That is the interpretation i got from your above quote. Correct me if i am wrong. HOwever, if i am right in this interpretation, you are sadly mistaken.

You know perfectly well that I think your tendency is for reasons as said... am not going to accuse you of racism in so many words however, given what happened last time. Racist would inaccurate in this case, anyhow.

And, I might add, plenty of others feel similarly about you and your opinions... of a wide number of things.

As I've also said, I don't believe this to be conscious on your part.

 

[archie mac]

You've gotta at least give it to them that Pura Cup sounds better than Pura Milk Cup.

Yes that is a fair point, but still

 

[Goughy]

Botham's high five-fers is something that i'd hold against him : it'd be like having a batsman with 25 test centuries and an average just touching 40. It implies that they had way too many off days than decent/good days on field.

Haha what rubbish. We all know that Botham declined drastically. Thats is why his bowling average is high. Thats not for debate, we all agree. However...

Did you know he took 14 5wi in his first 25 games? He did it when he was great. Its not like they were spread out evenly over a long career.Sobers took 6 in 90 odd games. You do the math

Also in those 1st 25 games he scored as many 100s (6) as Imran in his 20 year test career.

Incredible

I will state again. At his peak there has never been a better allrounder.

 

[Richard]

Kev, have you had this debate with C_C before?

If not, I suggest you read my ironic replies to you... they're roughly what you should expect.

 

[Richard]

Yes that is a fair point, but still

The best description I've heard of it was "an act of vandalism against both cricket's past and it's future".

 

[archie mac]

The best description I've heard of it was "an act of vandalism against both cricket's past and it's future".

I like that

Can you remember the source?

 

[Goughy]

Kev, have you had this debate with C_C before?

If not, I suggest you read my ironic replies to you... they're roughly what you should expect.

I have, thats why Im ignoring the fact this time that he rates Kapil over Botham

Im trying to keep this to a minimum