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Thread: Phil Jaques - Overhyped

  1. #1
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Phil Jaques - Overhyped

    Every third post I read in any thread about the Australian team, I see comments about this guy. Comments suggesting Langer will step aside to unleash this great talent, or that one of Hayden or Langer has to be dropped for him, or that he is automatic selection for the CB series. This compounds what was essentially a "Get NSW's best batsman into the Australian team" campaign by the Daily/Sunday Telegraph in Sydney who harp on about this player in nearly every article.

    Now I'm not saying he isn't a good prospect - because he clearly is based on his domestic form last season and the season before in both Australia and England. But really, there is a lot still to be proven. He is far from orthodox - his batting technique could very well be picked to pieces at international level by quality bowlers, and his unorthodoxy makes him susceptible to extended periods of shoddy form.

    His Pura Cup (Australian first class comp) scores this season:
    163
    79
    3
    0
    44
    0
    7
    0
    57
    2

    Great start in that first match, but he's been very, very average since then.
    Overall: 355 runs @ 35.50
    Ranked 27th this season in terms of average.

    Ford Ranger Cup (Australian one day comp) scores this season:
    31
    6
    75
    1
    33
    10
    3
    3

    Only one score of note in the one dayers all summer.
    Overall: 162 runs @ 20.25
    Ranked 57th this season in terms of average.

    Now again, I'm not saying this player should be discared forever - he clearly is a great prospect based on his previous seasons - I'm merely saying that the calls for him to displace one of Australia's most successful openers immediately, or even that he is an automatic pick for when Langer finally does hang up the gloves, are a bit unfounded.
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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Yep, everyone knows he's not in great form. Don't see the relevance really. You don't fluke several years of dominance.

    If people were saying he was guaranteed to be one of the best in the world or something he'd be overhyped, but simply saying he deserves a place in the team based on years of strong first class performances is perfectly reasonable.

    As far as his technique goes, you can't really assume that he'll fail based on that. He's not the most attractive batsman to watch, but he's been extremely effective in a variety of conditions. Could easily be argued that most bowlers you'll come up against in test cricket aren't that much better than what you'll face in Australian domestic cricket anyway. Regardless, you have to give him a run before he can be "exposed".

    Also, with your scores, it's probably worth noting that he scored two centuries against England in tour games that aren't included there.
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    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    I don't know if either Langer or Hayden are retiring soon though....but I could be wrong.
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    International Coach social's Avatar
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    Could be one of those guys whose time has passed him by - not easy to keep scoring mountains of runs and being constantly overlooked

    I'm not a big fan of his technique but his overall fc record is absolutely outstanding and you'd have to think he'd be worth a prolonged shot sooner rather than later


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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker
    I don't know if either Langer or Hayden are retiring soon though....but I could be wrong.
    I certainly don't think anyone should be forced out of the team to allow Jaques to come in, merely that Jaques should fill the first opening void that becomes available, whether it is through retirement or injury or poor form.

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    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Yep, everyone knows he's not in great form. Don't see the relevance really. You don't fluke several years of dominance.

    If people were saying he was guaranteed to be one of the best in the world or something he'd be overhyped, but simply saying he deserves a place in the team based on years of strong first class performances is perfectly reasonable.

    As far as his technique goes, you can't really assume that he'll fail based on that. He's not the most attractive batsman to watch, but he's been extremely effective in a variety of conditions. Could easily be argued that most bowlers you'll come up against in test cricket aren't that much better than what you'll face in Australian domestic cricket anyway. Regardless, you have to give him a run before he can be "exposed".

    Also, with your scores, it's probably worth noting that he scored two centuries against England in tour games that aren't included there.
    Yeah, I'm not saying he'll definitely fail and he should be discarded, but I think he is overhyped, particularly in Sydney newspapers.

    I don't think he is an automatic selection by any means once Langer retires, and I most certainly don't think he's breathing down Langer's neck.

    I don't see the logic in bringing someone from outside the team into the side when he is out of form himself. I also don't see why he seems to be prefered to Chris Rogers, who has been consistent for many seasons and has really dominated this season and is actually showing good form right now.

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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS
    I don't see the logic in bringing someone from outside the team into the side when he is out of form himself. I also don't see why he seems to be prefered to Chris Rogers, who has been consistent for many seasons and has really dominated this season and is actually showing good form right now.
    He's younger and he's made more runs over a longer period of good form. Rogers has had a couple of good seasons and is in top form at the moment, but his FC average is about 7 runs below Jaques'. Jaques also has the inside running because he's been around the Australia A side for a few years and has played both ODIs and tests. It's like asking why Mitchell Johnson is ahead of Ben Hilfenhaus even though Hilfenhaus has more wickets this season.

    Anyway, nobody is suggesting Jaques should be brought into the team right now, so I don't see what is current form has to do with it. Australia don't play test cricket for another 11 months, by which time Jaques could be making mountains of runs. If he's still in poor form, then obviously he's not likely to be picked.
    Last edited by FaaipDeOiad; 29-12-2006 at 08:22 PM.

  8. #8
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    It's like asking why Mitchell Johnson is ahead of Ben Hilfenhaus even though Hilfenhaus has more wickets this season.
    Mitchell Johnson isn't in disagraceful form currently though.

    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    Anyway, nobody is suggesting Jaques should be brought into the team right now
    CB series much? Telegraph much?

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    International Coach adharcric's Avatar
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    Phil Jaques - out of form. That's more like it.

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    International Coach social's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FaaipDeOiad
    I certainly don't think anyone should be forced out of the team to allow Jaques to come in, merely that Jaques should fill the first opening void that becomes available, whether it is through retirement or injury or poor form.
    IMO, Langer should go after this season

    He's been a great servant to OZ but, first test aside, his form has been ordinary for quite a while.

    He's 36 but recent comments make it unlikely that he will simply vacate a spot where he earns 800k per year.

    Time to be cruel to be kind I'm afraid

  11. #11
    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS

    CB series much? Telegraph much?
    If you're talking about the ODI side, then I don't see the relevance of Chris Rogers or Hayden or Langer. If Jaques is selected for the CB series it'll mainly be because there's no other clear candidate. There's either players who have been given an extended run and then discarded like Hayden and Katich, players who have potential but who aren't in particularly brilliant form either like Cosgrove, or selections which would be based purely on form rather than consistent weight of runs like Klinger.

    There's a short term vacancy in the ODI side at the moment because Watson is injured, and Jaques is as deserving of that spot as anyone else you could name. He's made runs consistently in both forms of the game and waited patiently for an opening, and now that there is one it makes sense to give him a go. I don't think they will pick him, but if they want a specialist opener he's the one to choose.

  12. #12
    Cricketer Of The Year SirBloody Idiot's Avatar
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    Rogers may have passed him, but both are quality bats.

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    You'll Never Walk Alone Nate's Avatar
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    Would still go Rogers opening next tbh.
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    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnanden
    Would still go Rogers opening next tbh.
    Which is exactly my point. Sometimes I don't even know if those who write for the Telegraph have even heard of Rogers.

  15. #15
    Hall of Fame Member Johnners's Avatar
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    He certainly wasn't overhyped when he was axing the english attack during their tour games. There's no doubt that Jaques is currently in a bad run of form, and it was to be expected that it would come at some stage, it's unfornatunate for him though that it's happened when Langer and Hayden are nearing the end of their careers. I for one am hoping that it's just a small glitch in an otherwise fine FC career.

    On the subject of Jaques v Rogers... Rogers certainly has more runs this season, however, whilst agree that he's in good form, i do beleive the WACA pitch has helped him substantially and made his Good form look Great.
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