Allrounder Statistical Rating

[PhoenixFire]

In my opinion, Keith Miller was the only genuine all rounder.

 

[aussie tragic]

It should be set at the level achieved by Garry Sobers, that's the only true benchmark for all rounders.

So Batting > 55 and Bowling < 35 then.... Gee that's Sobers and Kallis, however Kallis gets rarely any support as being the # 2 allrounder in History

 

[PhoenixFire]

Why does Kallis never get the support that others do? He has a better record than Imran Khan.......

 

[silentstriker]

Its really weird but I've never thought Kallis as 'really' an all rounder, but by all statistics, he's the second greatest all rounder in history.

 

[silentstriker]

Why does Kallis never get the support that others do? He has a better record than Imran Khan.......

Certainly a far better batsman than Imran Khan, Ian Botham, though a worse bowler than both.

 

[silentstriker]

Why does Kallis never get the support that others do? He has a better record than Imran Khan.......

200 wickets in 102 matches IMO is the reason.

 

[silentstriker]

Instead of an average, maybe you should use wkts/match to judge an all rounder? Say Kallis's ratio + .01 is required.

 

[aussie tragic]

Certainly a far better batsman than Imran Khan, Ian Botham, though a worse bowler than both.

Yeah, but if Sobers is the benchmark, note the similarities:

Sobers: 93 tests, 8032 runs @ 57.78; 235 wkts @ 34.03, SR 91.9
Kallis: 102 tests, 8033 runs @ 55.78; 200 wkts @ 31.71, SR 67.9

So, the only thing that makes Kallis less than Sobers is that he has only 2.0 wkts per match, while Sobers had 2.5 wkts per match

 

[aussie tragic]

Instead of an average, maybe you should use wkts/match to judge an all rounder? Say Kallis's ratio + .01 is required.

I already did that which is why the minimum criteria was set at 2.0 wkts per match (Kallis has 1.96 which converts to 2.0 to one decimal place)

I personally think the W/M should be be > 2.5, but then Greig and Kallis would miss out......how about > 2.4 so just Kallis misses out??????????

Bleh, I think I had it right the first time with Batting ave > 22, bowling ave < 35 and wkts > 2.0 per match so all are considered, however personally I think I'm leaning towards:

Batting ave > 25, bowling ave < 35 and wkts > 2.5 per match

 

[PhoenixFire]

Yeah, if you look at it, then Sobers hasn't really taken that many more wickets than Kallis.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

So Batting > 55 and Bowling < 35 then.... Gee that's Sobers and Kallis, however Kallis gets rarely any support as being the # 2 allrounder in History

I meant for bowling only. As Sobers would sometimes take the new ball or bowl first or second change or first or second spinner or be the stock bowler tying up one end, the fact that he did so much is detrimental to his figures but he's still a "genuine" all rounder.

 

[PhoenixFire]

I meant for bowling only. As Sobers would sometimes take the new ball or bowl first or second change or first or second spinner or be the stock bowler tying up one end, the fact that he did so much is detrimental to his figures but he's still a "genuine" all rounder.

Kallis bowls in all of those situations, what's your point?

 

[silentstriker]

Timely article on cricinfo:

Achievements
What didn't he achieve? As captain, he led Pakistan to first-ever overseas series wins in India and England. He also led them to a World Cup win and two semi-finals and never, under his captaincy, did Pakistan lose a series to the frighteningly dominant West Indians. He also took 362 Test wickets and scored nearly 4000 runs (average-wise, he tops the four great all-rounders of the 80s). He is one of only two players to take ten wickets in a Test and score a hundred, one of only a handful to take 40 wickets in a Test series (and that too on Pakistani pitches). The list could go on. And all this after he played two years literally as half a player, a serious shin injury preventing him from bowling.

What makes him special
Above all, he had tremendous presence on the field. Sheer will pushed him from being an inswinging medium-pacer to a fast bowler who, in his prime, touched West Indian pace, with an action so beautiful it deserved a catwalk. Arguably, he reverse swung it better than any, even his famed disciples. As a batsman, he improved with age; by the end of his career, an essentially sound technique meant he could do one-down stabilizer, lower-order bully or middle order chaser.

Finest hour
Potentially, it could be hours: his first series as captain in England, where he topped bowling and batting tables, the away series wins over India or England, or even the drawn series in the Caribbean in 1988. Probably edging them all is the World Cup triumph in 1992, his last act as captain and player. With the ball, the sting had gone, but as a batsman, the brain ticked over till the very end. Above all, as leader he was peerless, goading from a rabble, the performance of their lives; cornered tigers anyone?

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Kallis bowls in all of those situations, what's your point?

My point was that Sobers batting average doesn't need to be used as a benchmark but his bowling does so therefore not only Sobers and Kallis quality. What's your point, assuming you were making one and not just trying ( and failing) to be a smartie pants.

 

[PhoenixFire]

I simply misunderstood you, I apologise.

 

[Slifer]

I think u people are too obsessed with stats. U should try and listen in on cricinfo's debate on best allrounder it was a real eye opener for me. For them a great allrounder is one who influence a game with both bat and ball. Some cricketers like Kallis have impressive numbers but how often did they influence a game in both dsiciplines. or should i say three, b'cause thats the thing about Sobers, the guy was a great/flexible bat. if memory serves me correctly, Sobers has the most hundreds in different batting positions, he was a good bowler able to bowl orthodox, chinaman and seam. admittedly his bowling stats arent that that impressive but then they never needed to be he was never a frontline bowler. and his fielding? ask the great Lance Gibbs about those breathtaking catches sobers took close to the wicket without the luxury of a helmet. IMO Gary Sobers for all the reasons mentioned is easily the greatest all round cricketer of all time. U guys as far as im concerned can continue ur debate on who is number 2.

 

[aussie tragic]

I think u people are too obsessed with stats. IMO Gary Sobers for all the reasons mentioned is easily the greatest all round cricketer of all time. U guys as far as im concerned can continue ur debate on who is number 2.

Umm, the Stats also show Sobers to be a clear winner as the # 1 Allrounder of all time and most of this debate is whether Kallis has ther bowling record to be considered as the # 2. There is no debate on the remaining top 10 of Miller, Imran, Faulkner, Botham...etc.

So put simply, statistical rating is only going to work if you set the criteria correct in the first place (Otherwise Bradman would win on his batting stats alone).

So I think with the feeback so far, I'm re-setting the Allrounder entry criteria as follows:

Batting Average > 25.00; Bowling Average < 35.00, Wkts/ Match 2.4 (i.e. 12 wkts per 5-test series). If people miss out, so be it.

Resulting List to follow shortly.....

 

[aussie tragic]

"Final" All-Time Greatest Allrounder List is as follows:

{Entry Criteria: Batting, 1000 runs @ Ave > 25.00 and 50 wkts @ Ave < 35.00 and > 2.4 Wkts per match}

Tier 1 [Rating > 100]

1. Sobers --- (123.9)
2. Miller --- (110.3)
3. Imran --- (110.2)
4. Faulkner --- (109.5)
5. Botham --- (109.1)
6. Hadlee --- (102.3)
7. Greig --- (101.8)
8. Cairns --- (100.8)

Tier 2

9. Pollock --- (99.7)
10. Goddard --- (96.5)
11. Gregory --- (95.7)
12. Flintoff --- (95.4)
13. Noble --- (94.4)
14. Dev --- (91.6)
15. Mankad --- (88.7)
16. Tate --- (80.8)

Tier 3 [Honourable Mention]

Kallis, Procter, Davidson, Benaud, McMillan, Akram, Kelleway, Lindwall, Bailey, Rhodes, Prabhakar, Nadkarni, Streak, Vaas, Vettori

 

[Perm]

Still amazes me that Kapil Dev is so low, considering how highly he was rated.

 

[aussie tragic]

btw, the combined average of the top 16 is as follows:

66 Tests, 3294 runs @ 35.13, RPI 31.67, HS 166, 6 100's; 231 wkts @ 27.74, SR 66.6, 3.44 Wkts/Match, Best ICC Rank 490

The above would give you a rating of exactly 100, so this is why there are 8 players above 100 in Tier 1 and 8 players below in Tier 2.