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Thread: How much can England lose by - and still be number two?

  1. #1
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    How much can England lose by - and still be number two?

    As the title says.

    At the moment they're getting well and truly flogged (howardj's "How can people think England won't win a Test" is looking particularly good as a prediction at present?) Obviously a whitewash would theoretically make them look the worst England side since the 1920s, but at the same time the competition isn't exactly great. In order of ICC rankings...

    Pakistan: Their current side lacks Shoaib and Asif, and a side without Shoaib and Asif lost 2-0 in England. I think it's fair to say that it's at least even between the two, even if England should lose 4-0 or 5-0 (consider that the last Pak v Aus meeting ended 3-0) Without drugs...then maybe Pakistan is two, but England are also better with S Jones.

    India: Perhaps, but they only managed 1-1 at home to England, and had three drawn Tests against West Indies. Away from home, their bowlers do not have a good record at all.

    Sri Lanka: Managed a strong 1-1 series result in England, and beat South Africa 2-0 at home. Are currently carrying at least one bowler (Maharoof), though, and still need to develop Tharanga into a worthy heir to Atapattu. Also lost to India 0-2 about a year ago.

    South Africa: Not good in the subcontinent, and fell 0-5 with one draw to Australia over the last summer, not exactly impressive. Couple of good bowlers in Ntini and Nel, and allrounders will help them draw a few.

    New Zealand: Bond will no doubt break down before their next Test series, leaving them with a bunch of half-decent seamers like Franklin and Mills - just like they've always had, really. Brittle batting lineup which doesn't know who is supposed to play where. Also does not play Tests.

    West Indies: Too many passengers - Ganga, Gayle, Morton/Sarwan, Edwards - to make a good Test side. Bravo isn't a consistent performer yet either. Nil away Test wins in their last 35 attempts against decent opposition.

    In other words...even if you retired Ponting, Hussey, McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist and Hayden right now, I think Australia would pretty much be world No. 1. Yet this Aussie side is a fair bit worse than the one five years ago (or is it?) suggesting that Test cricket, in general, is "going through a transitional period" (the euphemism for "the new players are dire")
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    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    I think England will be number 2 even if they lose 5-0. Rankings aren't born out of one or two good or bad series, and as much as the English think the Ashes are the only thing in cricket, England's #2 ranking is based on consistent performances over the last 3-5 years. Hard as it is to believe, its really just one series.

    Unless that changes, they'll be #2.
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    Hall of Fame Member FaaipDeOiad's Avatar
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    In other words...even if you retired Ponting, Hussey, McGrath, Warne, Gilchrist and Hayden right now, I think Australia would pretty much be world No. 1. Yet this Aussie side is a fair bit worse than the one five years ago (or is it?) suggesting that Test cricket, in general, is "going through a transitional period" (the euphemism for "the new players are dire")
    I actually think the competition these days for Australia is better than it used to be. It's easy to get carried away in criticising current players, but you've got to remember how bad some teams used to be. The West Indies lost every test in 00/01, and sported the likes of Nixon McLean and Marlon Black in their team, who are definitely worse bowlers than guys like Daren Powell and Fidel Edwards, even though those guys aren't great. There's been a general improvement in bowling attacks in the last five or six years, with England, India, New Zealand, South Africa and the West Indies all sporting better attacks, albeit some by small margins. Even Sri Lanka, despite the decline of Vaas, are at least as good as they were with the ball, and Pakistan when they had Asif and Akhtar weren't bad either. Arguably, the only bowling attack which is clearly worse than in the barren years of bowling we've just come through is Australia.

    Pitches are gradually becoming a bit more sporting in most parts of the world too, compared to the last five years or so.

    I think Australia are slightly worse off because they've lost Gillespie and a few of their batters are less consistent these days. Gilchrist also isn't performing as he was. The improvement in Ponting and the addition of Hussey are significant, but I'd still rate the Australian side around 2001/02 higher than the current bunch.

    Anyway, on the topic of the thread, even if England lose 5-0 they are still the number two side in the world until someone actually beats them. I'd say if England get hammered they will be marginally ahead of Pakistan, but Pakistan can hardly overtake England based on their recent series against one another, since they were split down the middle, and England's record against other nations is superior overall. The same goes for India, and South Africa as the next best team are a bit further back.
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    State Vice-Captain Poker Boy's Avatar
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    Well acorrding to www.icc-cricket.com if England lose 0-5 they will fall to 114 points amd Pakistan will be 112 (if they beat WI in the 3rd Test) 110 (if they draw) and 107 (if they lose) so England will be above Pakistan even if they lose 0-5 and it would depend on what Pakistan then do in SA. I can't say anything about India but i imagine they would have to beat SA 2-0 at least to overtake England.
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    International Debutant andmark's Avatar
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    I think the first test will be a draw.England can only win The Ashes by a draw which would be badly deserved.

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    Icon14 please England do yourselves justice

    2005 was the first time i can remember England winning the ashes. At that time my best friend had just passed away and his dying wish was to see Vaughn et al lift that tiny urn. He missed that glorious achievement by 3 weeks.
    I know we are getting slaughtered but we did at Lords too, so it's not all over. I guess what I'm saying is come on freddy come on straussy and come on everyone else, make us all proud again and don't let those arrogant aussies have it all their own way. We are still too good for that.

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    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comeonfreddy
    We are still too good for that.
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    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    If England get hammered 5-0 they are still #2.

    Who else would it be? We know Aus are no. 1 but England just whitewashed Pakistan 3-0.
    It would be a shocking result for England but what would it tell us apart from the fact that Australia are by far the best in the world and we knew that already.
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    International Regular Beleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goughy
    If England get hammered 5-0 they are still #2.

    Who else would it be? We know Aus are no. 1 but England just whitewashed Pakistan 3-0.
    It would be a shocking result for England but what would it tell us apart from the fact that Australia are by far the best in the world and we knew that already.
    England didn't white-wash Pakistan.

    If England get hammered 5-0 then there's no single number two in the world.

  10. #10
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg
    England didn't white-wash Pakistan.

    If England get hammered 5-0 then there's no single number two in the world.
    Damn, keep forgetting it was a 4 match series.

    Why cant it be simple like the old days. 3 or 5 match series.

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    with shoaib and asif in the side theres no question pakistan is the 2nd best team in the world, however without them i woudl easily give england the edge

    i dont know if england are the 2nd best though, id like to think that s african have a very good bowling attack which can win them matches. as of right now these are my test rankings

    aussies
    safrica
    england
    srilanka
    india
    pakistan
    westindies

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    Request Your Custom Title Now! Mr Mxyzptlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes
    West Indies: Too many passengers - Ganga, Gayle, Morton/Sarwan, Edwards - to make a good Test side. Bravo isn't a consistent performer yet either.
    Ganga and Gayle have had a good year. Not sure how Ganga in particular has been a passenger since his return. He's been playing well for the most part.
    Sreesanth said, "Next ball he was beaten and I said, 'is this the King Charles Lara? Who is this impostor, moving around nervously? I should have kept my mouth shut for the next ball - mind you, it was a length ball - Lara just pulled it over the church beyond the boundary! He is a true legend."


  13. #13
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Mxyzptlk
    Ganga and Gayle have had a good year. Not sure how Ganga in particular has been a passenger since his return. He's been playing well for the most part.
    Still keeps getting starts and throwing them away. Except at Basseterre (flat), Multan (flat) and Auckland (very good innings). He's turning from Ramprakash to Butcher, admittedly.

  14. #14
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    Tbh if we get absolutely thrashed we'll be very number two.

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    Hall of Fame Member steds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andmark
    I think the first test will be a draw.England can only win The Ashes by a draw which would be badly deserved.
    To be pedantic, England can't win the Ashes at all.

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